Testing And Ranking Standards

[MJS]

What testing and ranking standards do you use in your org?

What testing and ranking standards do you think should be used, in an effort to ensure the best results possible?

 

[Dieter]

Hello,

we in the DAV in Germany have a grading program since more than 25 years.
5 student levels (white, yellow, green, blue, brown) and 5 black belt levels, that we exam (1st to 5th Dan).

We have a technical commission consisting of out 8 high ranking members. At the moment
One 8th Dan, two 7th Dan, one 5th Dan, four 4th Dan.
It is me as the chief instructor plus the 3 highest black belts in the organization.
2 more are appointed by the board of directors and the last 2 are elected by the members every 3 years.

We meet twice a year to discuss the standards and change things, if necessary.
But at the moment, your student program is the same since 2002, but we have a change of the black belt program coming up next summer.

Our student level Programs are available on DVD.
See here:

http://www.abanico.de/shop/product_info.php?info=p2696_Modern-Arnis-1.html
http://www.abanico.de/shop/product_info.php?info=p2699_Modern-Arnis-2.html
http://www.abanico.de/shop/product_info.php?info=p2687_Modern-Arnis-3.html
http://www.abanico.de/shop/product_info.php?info=p2690_Modern-Arnis-4.html
http://www.abanico.de/shop/product_info.php?info=p2693_Modern-Arnis-5.html

The DVDs are available in different formats:

PAL-German
Pal English and
NTSC English


Recently also as download or streaming version in German or English.
More details on those later.


Greetings from the DAV Germany

Dieter

 

[Dan Anderson]

I have three rating systems.

1. One is for the MA80 system and that is for students.
2. Another is the Fast Track Arnis Training Program.
3. The last is for Remy Presas Modern Arnis students who are not affiliated with any of the other orgs out there, including mine.

Each has its own set of requirements and standards.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[MJS]

Well, to answer my own questions:

We have our required list of material for each rank. The students have to be proficient enough for that level, to pass. Of course, as people advance in the art and in rank, their skill level should also rise.

As time goes on, the student should not be bound by the basic required material, but instead begin to dig deeper, and be able to expand on things, on their own.

As time goes on, the student should be able to kick things up a notch, adding in more resistance and pressure. Its one thing to be able to do something while the other person is complying, but another when they swing a little harder, punch a little faster, etc. If you can't make something work in that situation, then IMO, you need to go back to the drawing board and figure out why.

Of course, the student should also be giving something back. The art isn't going to grow if you're not out there, helping to spread it.

Thank you both for the replies so far. I look forward to meeting and training with both of you next year.

Any other Arnis people out there that would like to comment?

 

[MJS]

I have three rating systems.

1. One is for the MA80 system and that is for students.
2. Another is the Fast Track Arnis Training Program.
3. The last is for Remy Presas Modern Arnis students who are not affiliated with any of the other orgs out there, including mine.

Each has its own set of requirements and standards.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Thanks Dan. Could you expand a bit more on these?

 

[MJS]

Just to add onto my last: IMHO, part of testing and ranking also involves training with a teacher. You need to spend quality time with someone who can teach you, train you, and help you expand your knowledge and ability in the art. IMO, if you're not doing this, then you have no business testing for rank. When I mention training, I'm talking about training on a regular basis. If you're doing a few times here and there, thats not enough. You gotta be with someone more than that.

 

[MJS]

Gee, 5 replies and almost 200 views. Hmm...whats wrong with this picture? Then again, for some reason, I'm almost not surprised. Guess this is one of those topics, that is important, but not sexy enough to get a ton of replies. Go figure. *shrug*

 

[Carol]

I think we're all in the FMAs for its combat rigor, and I don't think any one of us wants to see it watered down to kiddie krotty, regardless of which style we train in.

The trouble that I see with contributing here is the FMAs are consistently inconsistent with regards to how they handle matters of rank. Modern Arnis is the only one that I know of, for example, that incorporates colored belts and degrees of black belt.

Rich Parsons, for example, does Modern Arnis and Balintawak. I think he told me once that the only rank in Balintawak is 'instructor'...that's it. I have seen other systems that use a smattering of titles (Guro, Punong Guro, Matas-na-Guro, Tuhon, etc). I'm not sure what these entail, perhaps one day I'll find out.

Testing and ranking standards, IMO, is very important...because it is standards that keep the system rigorous. Modern Arnis is one of the better known FMAs in the United States, and I suspect the belt structure allows for a bit better codification than other systems.

 

[Dan Anderson]

I have three rating systems.

1. One is for the MA80 system and that is for students.
2. Another is the Fast Track Arnis Training Program.
3. The last is for Remy Presas Modern Arnis students who are not affiliated with any of the other orgs out there, including mine.

Each has its own set of requirements and standards.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Hey Mike,

1. This is the white through black belt series of checksheets for my personal students in my school. The checksheets are in Modern Arnis The Book of Basics.

2. The Fast Track Arnis Training Program is split up into three distinct DVDs. DVD 1 is up through green belt level. DVD 2 is through brown belt level. DVD 4 is the empty hand tactical forms and the combination of all three would be 1st grade black.

3. Is based on what RP used to have us do at the training camps. There are a ton of old RP black belts who are not affiliated with IMAF, WMAA, NSI, IMAFP, DAV, MARPIO, or MA80. I have tested several individuals for advanced dan ranking based on what RP used to do coupled with my 44 experience in the martial arts.

That's the concise answer.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Rich Parsons]

What testing and ranking standards do you use in your org?

We use the ranking requirements we used when GM Remy Presas came to our club and tested us.

What testing and ranking standards do you think should be used, in an effort to ensure the best results possible?

This is very difficult. As many people had similar but different testing requirements that were used at versus camps or were used with GM Presas at their clubs.

I would come back and check to see what people were posting while I thought about a reply that was beneficial and positive to the discussion. As I could see each org posting a link to their reqs if they are online and then having a discussion on why someone thought X was on a yellow belt and others thought it was a green belt.

 

[MJS]

We use the ranking requirements we used when GM Remy Presas came to our club and tested us.

Cool.

This is very difficult. As many people had similar but different testing requirements that were used at versus camps or were used with GM Presas at their clubs.

I would come back and check to see what people were posting while I thought about a reply that was beneficial and positive to the discussion. As I could see each org posting a link to their reqs if they are online and then having a discussion on why someone thought X was on a yellow belt and others thought it was a green belt.

This is something thats been talked about many times in the other areas of this forum, so I figured seeing that this area tends to be kinda quiet, I'd ask this question in hopes to get some discussion.

 

[MJS]

3. Is based on what RP used to have us do at the training camps. There are a ton of old RP black belts who are not affiliated with IMAF, WMAA, NSI, IMAFP, DAV, MARPIO, or MA80. I have tested several individuals for advanced dan ranking based on what RP used to do coupled with my 44 experience in the martial arts.

That's the concise answer.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Hey Dan,

Have you ever run into any issues with this? What I mean is, does this de-value the art and/or rank by doing this?

For example: Lets say a student trains in Parker Kenpo. He's a 1st degree BB. Larry Tatum is coming to the area to do a 2 day seminar, the student is up for promotion, so he asks his inst. if he could test in front of Larry Tatum. Teacher says yes, students tests. This school is part of Tatums organization.

Example 2: Same as above, but the student is not under a particular organization. Tatum comes to town, he tests with him. Palanzo comes, he tests, and so forth. 2 Kenpo seniors, yet both have different organizations.

In Ex 1, the student is training with a teacher, but during Tatums visit, has the chance to test under him. In Ex 2, the student is training with nobody, but tests with various people from time to time. While these people are doing the same art as the student, they're expected to test someone who they've never worked with for any length of time?

Of course, in the end, all of these people are free to do as they wish. It would seem to me though, that it takes something away from those that are working with someone on a regular basis.

Just my .02.

 

[Dan Anderson]

Hey Dan,

Have you ever run into any issues with this? What I mean is, does this de-value the art and/or rank by doing this?

For example: Lets say a student trains in Parker Kenpo. He's a 1st degree BB. Larry Tatum is coming to the area to do a 2 day seminar, the student is up for promotion, so he asks his inst. if he could test in front of Larry Tatum. Teacher says yes, students tests. This school is part of Tatums organization.

Example 2: Same as above, but the student is not under a particular organization. Tatum comes to town, he tests with him. Palanzo comes, he tests, and so forth. 2 Kenpo seniors, yet both have different organizations.

In Ex 1, the student is training with a teacher, but during Tatums visit, has the chance to test under him. In Ex 2, the student is training with nobody, but tests with various people from time to time. While these people are doing the same art as the student, they're expected to test someone who they've never worked with for any length of time?

Of course, in the end, all of these people are free to do as they wish. It would seem to me though, that it takes something away from those that are working with someone on a regular basis.

Just my .02.

Hi Mike,

No problems as I have only promoted people who have had quite some time in the art. Jaye Spiro, Mark Lynn, Don Kerstetter, and Frank Shekosky are the ones I have promoted. Each of them have been in the art for quite a while. Only Don is affiliated with me now.

Yours,
Dan

 

[MJS]

Hi Mike,

No problems as I have only promoted people who have had quite some time in the art. Jaye Spiro, Mark Lynn, Don Kerstetter, and Frank Shekosky are the ones I have promoted. Each of them have been in the art for quite a while. Only Don is affiliated with me now.

Yours,
Dan

So you're just taking time in art/grade as the only consideration, and not time spent working 1 on 1 with someone?

 

[Dan Anderson]

Please don't make assumptions. I have worked one on one with each person named. I not only see but feel what they can do. Very important.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[MJS]

Nope, no assumption, just the way it read to me. I had mentioned time spent actually training with a teacher, in one of my earlier posts. I was just interested in hearing your views on time spent with someone. Like I said, if someone isn't spending more than a few hours here and there, I can't possibly see how a person could test or the instructor getting a real feel for how someones skill level is.

Trained/train/work/worked: IMO, while these are all similar words, they're different. I trained with Royce Gracie at a 1 day seminar, quite a few years ago. If I were to say that I train with him or under him, that'd be a big difference. I'll have worked with you and the other 9 instructors at the reunion camp next year. However, the only one that I work with, is Brian.

 

[Dan Anderson]

Mike,

One of the things having been in martial arts for 44 years and arnis for 30, I can tell the depth of someone's knowledge by spending a few hours with them. This might not be real to you but I am looking beneath the surface (number of techniques known, demonstrated, etc.) and can feel immediately (by physical contact) how far they have progressed.

As an example is the person doing a disarm with strength and speed or do they really have the leverage aspect of it down.

Example: when you do a flow drill what is their body position as well as their response if you step out of the box?

I can go on and on. Ask Brian re my skills, both applied and observational. That should handle any question you any have about me in this regard.

If you want to see how I think then you should get my book Filipino Martial Arts: The Core Basics, Structure & Essentials from my website. This will give you great insight as to how I look at things. Brian's got one. You can get him to tell you about it.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Carol]

Isn't that real to everyone in the FMAs? Many of our systems don't have formal belt ranks and we all end up banging with each other at one time or another. Even with my own (serious lack of) skill, I can gauge whether a person is better or worse than me in a few minutes of mat time. Was that a light hit because they don't know how to focus their strike? Or was that a light hit because they used excellent control?

No one here is doubting your experience or accomplishments in the arts, sir Its not always that we get to hear about how things are done directly from the source.

 

[stickarts]

A senior, or someone with adequate experience, can evaluate someone pretty quickly. After many years of consistent training and teaching I know that i can evaluate where someone is at after working with them and watching them. It actually doesn't take that long to see where someone is at when you have the experience to do it. This is not experience that you can get by spending 24 / 7 on a forum and talking about it and criticizing. Being a critic is a different skill set. There are also seniors I see in other arts such as kenpo like Larry Tatum, Lee Wedlake, Huk Planas, Joe Palanzo, etc... that can quite easily evaluate students without having to work with them every day for 20 years. It's called experience and understanding the art.
MJS, if you don't have Dan's book you should get it. I think you will learn a lot.

 

[Guro Harold]

Isn't that real to everyone in the FMAs? Many of our systems don't have formal belt ranks and we all end up banging with each other at one time or another. Even with my own (serious lack of) skill, I can gauge whether a person is better or worse than me in a few minutes of mat time. Was that a light hit because they don't know how to focus their strike? Or was that a light hit because they used excellent control?

I hear you on this point. It reminds me of GM Presas when he would say "____ helps you detect the weakness of of your opponent." He said this in regards to Tapi-Tapi, The Flow, or Sinawali.