Ten Deadly Kenpo Techniques

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Unique?!? That's beyond hyperbole...it's outright wrong. Many people understand this idea, best expressed as "Don't invade Russia in the winter." It's not only a standard strategy, it was so long before his birth. Look at the story of the jo being used against Miyamoto Musashi ("Don't fence a fencer.") That having been said, yes, all to many people forget the lesson.

When I say unique, I absolutely am referring to creative application of the idea. Which is all too rare in the arts, and not nearly that outright wrong. Challenge matches were as likely to get a pie to the face followed by a stomp on the toe, as they were anything else. Many understand the idea...how often do you see it? Particularly in the defensive arts, where training engrains patterns that practitioners are wont to deviate from, even if it ain't the best idea at the time?

Teaching non-sequiter defense through sequiter drills is a toughy. And I'm always open to new ideas.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Prearranged drills shows possibles Allways a person should open the door by telling the students you can take any of these moves at different times and put something together. Ther is no set delivery method. Yes as for demo. You want to show. Then in resistive motion you still show but The Uke resists you go beyond there action and still get delivery. Every art has prearranged and open drills That is a teaching tool. Its not the video here As I said it shows a teaching format. The Idea is when you start you just keep going until your opponet can not be considered a threat. That is more or lees what kenpo is trying to teach you or anybody. Your sudden responce training is to deliver a fast flurry not a 1 2 delivery. Now as you grow you have to train some resistance to go beyond preformed motion. Then you have a delivery that can be effective in a street action mode. Look at the video. as to what was done. Learn from what was showed. Any move could have been the first strike move in a different order. Distance would have changed probably after the first or second hit. Now which move would have came into play as you had to move in closer while still striking. All I am saying Its good for train at one level Then go beyond it. How at different speed levels of resistive motion. reaction training Next step is what spars light and medium contact.

Exactly.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

"Never box with a boxer; wrestle with a wrestler; or sprint against a sprinter. This is the surest path to defeat or destruction. Change the subject; THAT is the name of the game. If he's a boxer, take him down. If he's a wrestler, break his hands and knees so he can't grab or throw you. If he's a sprinter, go on a long run with him. Never, ever fight a shark in his own water."
- Edmund K. Parker, Founder and Senior GrandMaster of American Kenpo...............

The demo may be taken out of context. On the rest of the tape Mr. Trejo can be seen showing the Uke's what's coming as though they aren't kenpoists or don't know the technique sequence. Therefore they may not have known the sequence and he may have been "going light" for safety reasons.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Unique?!? That's beyond hyperbole...it's outright wrong. Many people understand this idea, best expressed as "Don't invade Russia in the winter." It's not only a standard strategy, it was so long before his birth. Look at the story of the jo being used against Miyamoto Musashi ("Don't fence a fencer.") That having been said, yes, all to many people forget the lesson.



Makes sense. Basically, a (two-man) kata-like approach, arranged differently.



OK, there's my point. I'm looking to see someone step to the outside to avoid the follow-up, and throw a technique that wouldn't be caught by them just having their hands up. This problem isn't unique to Kenpo.

I am not doubting Mr. Trejo's abilities. But, these stand-still demos seem much more prevalent in Kenpo, despite it's claims to teach practrical self-defense.

Ok, my apologies. I thought you meant this "problem" was unique to Kenpo. Yep, that's Kenpo pretty much. I see this all the time in training but not often presented in clips, maybe I should post some clips like this? hmmmm I have work to do

 

[MJS]

I think its important to keep in mind, that this clip was simply a demo of techniques. I can look around on youtube and find similar clips in which the uke is standing still. Whats important to keep in mind, and this goes for every art, not just Kenpo, is that its important to be able to flow from one move to the next, in the event something goes wrong. Isn't that what grafting is all about? If, during the course of the technique, the uke moves, counters, etc., then thats when we adapt to whats being presented to us, and do something else.

Mike

 

[Flying Crane]

Not always. There are several techniques that can be done irregardless of the responses. Five Swords comes to mind. Also Delayed Sword, Alternating Maces, Calming the Storm, etc. Also alot of the extended techniques are extended because SOMETHING WENT WRONG at VARIOUS points. This is misinformation of EPAK. The equation Formula (in oarticular the adjust and regulate portions) allows alot of techniques to go largely unaltered in the face of variables.

Dance of Death is just a lesson in different pinning moves. All the techniques are just lessons. The only assumption is that the Kenpo techniques are meant to be used as written in combat.

Agreed.

It's true, not all the techs do what I have described, and Dance of Death was just a very clean and obvious example.

Look at another hypothetical example. If a tech involves a shot to the solar plexus to double him over, followed by a handsword to the back of the neck, or an elbow down into the spine, these followup shots are dependent on that shot to the solar plexus actually working. If he doesn't bend over, then the followups to the back of the neck or spine don't present themselved. Again, time to get creative. While Dance of Death was a very obvious example, this problem does exist in other techs as well, even if not so obvious.

I understand the techs are really meant to teach response ideas and creativity. I suspect you and I are really more on the same page than off. I just wanted to point this out because I think perhaps some people think that they would actually pull off a tech in the street the same way it is taught, and I think that can be a hazardous idea.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I just wanted to point this out because I think perhaps some people think that they would actually pull off a tech in the street the same way it is taught, and I think that can be a hazardous idea.

We're actually on nearly exactly the same page, just a little Devil's advocate work going on here for discussion.

The above is too true indeed.

 

[Robert Lee]

Its not the tape or who is on the tape Its not kenpo or any art. Its real life when you need and it works. as far as the tape I see it a a training tape But one has to open there eyes and mind after. And when you look at a real fight tape you see many things that could have been done or looked sloppy. Whats real is then and there and the person doing it. The old saying if it worked it was right. You or I its us thats counts in real life. Training teaches doing gets it done. But it is how you train that makes doning work. And a street fight does not give much time to find out how to fight the boxer or the grappler You find out as the fight goes on. In the do jo or kwoon Or Gym thats wher you train to make it work. On the streets thats where you find out if it did. Im saying the tape is good depending on how you want to look at it. Would it work real life like that No would it help to train for that type of explosion YES Take the video and see its meaning. To me its hit as often as you can and if the opening is there hit If the person is still standing hit You stop when the threat is over. The video shows continued motion Just Not real on the clip bUt its there to learn from.

 

[arnisador]

I think its important to keep in mind, that this clip was simply a demo of techniques. I can look around on youtube and find similar clips in which the uke is standing still.

Well...the original poster labeled this thread " Ten Deadly Kenpo Techniques" (emphasis added). I don't see the deadliness being demonstrated. If this isn't a good demo., perhaps the original poster starting a thread for it was inadvisable. I inferred that is was posted because it was as titled, and not because it was a random YouTube clip.

Whats important to keep in mind, and this goes for every art, not just Kenpo, is that its important to be able to flow from one move to the next, in the event something goes wrong. Isn't that what grafting is all about?

It's surely what Modern Arnis is about! Makes sense to me.

 

[MJS]

Well...the original poster labeled this thread " Ten Deadly Kenpo Techniques" (emphasis added). I don't see the deadliness being demonstrated. If this isn't a good demo., perhaps the original poster starting a thread for it was inadvisable. I inferred that is was posted because it was as titled, and not because it was a random YouTube clip.

Yes sir, perhaps the title of the thread, compared to the title thats actually on the clip was a bit misleading. As Mr. Trejo stated, these clips were just a sample of AK and some common attacks.

It's surely what Modern Arnis is about! Makes sense to me.

Right on!

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Well...the original poster labeled this thread " Ten Deadly Kenpo Techniques" (emphasis added). I don't see the deadliness being demonstrated. If this isn't a good demo., perhaps the original poster starting a thread for it was inadvisable. I inferred that is was posted because it was as titled, and not because it was a random YouTube clip.




It's surely what Modern Arnis is about! Makes sense to me.

For the record Ten Deadly Kenpo Techniques was just the labelling on the tape.

My apologies for the tape not being as "deadly" as you would have liked. I'll be sure to include blood and dismemberments in future clips, LOL.

P.S. it's a joke for those who'll think I'm serious.

P.P.S. Any idea where some "good" Modern Arnis clips are. Good meaning clips that you would recommend to show to others.

 

[arnisador]

P.P.S. Any idea where some "good" Modern Arnis clips are. Good meaning clips that you would recommend to show to others.

A bunch have been posted here and on FMATalk.com recently! For example, see:
http://www.fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=999
http://www.fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=1001
http://www.fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=1010
http://www.fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=949

There are others in the Modern Arnis fora here and there.

 

[hongkongfooey]

I love this quote! I intend to steal it. It expresses my feelings precisely.

I must say, the clip is classic Kenpo to my mind...uke not only stands stock-still after a single punch, he even drops his guard before the first blow lands. It doesn't make for a compelling demonstration, to my mind.

It looks like every martial arts demo that I have ever watched, including the Modern Arnis clips that you had posted.

 

[arnisador]

I didn't start a thread claiming they were deadly.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I didn't start a thread claiming they were deadly.

No you didn't. but you did complain about a certain aspect of the tape (Uke's offering no resistance) so I asked about an example of yours that was "good" in your opinion. You posted clips that had the same fallacy (passive uke's) you were condemning. Besides, like I posted the "ten deadly..." was the packaging on the tape, it wasn't claiming anything.

it's like you saying "water is terrible drink" and I say "well give me a good drink" and you go "here's a bottle of water"

 

[arnisador]

it's like you saying "water is terrible drink" and I say "well give me a good drink" and you go "here's a bottle of water"

Wow. You know, it really couldn't be further from that at all.

 

[Danjo]

For the record Ten Deadly Kenpo Techniques was just the labelling on the tape.

My apologies for the tape not being as "deadly" as you would have liked. I'll be sure to include blood and dismemberments in future clips, LOL.

P.S. it's a joke for those who'll think I'm serious.

P.P.S. Any idea where some "good" Modern Arnis clips are. Good meaning clips that you would recommend to show to others.

Ummm...I watched it a few times and counted only 9 deadly Kenpo techniques. Maybe I mis-counted?

I love watching anything with Mr. Trejo in it though. One needs to ask oneself if someone that's as good a fighter as he is and was would train this way if it were useless? Given what Mr. Trejo accomplished, it seems like one should rather be sayiing, "Hmmm... I wonder what I can learn from this type of training?" Very few that are criticizing these clips have the reputation that Mr. Trejo does in terms of fighting, so it makes me chuckle when I hear him being criticized for this stuff.

Big thanks to James for his on-going efforts to bring this Kenpo history to the rest of us!

 

[Monadnock]

No you didn't. but you did complain about a certain aspect of the tape (Uke's offering no resistance) so I asked about an example of yours that was "good" in your opinion. You posted clips that had the same fallacy (passive uke's) you were condemning. Besides, like I posted the "ten deadly..." was the packaging on the tape, it wasn't claiming anything.

it's like you saying "water is terrible drink" and I say "well give me a good drink" and you go "here's a bottle of water"

The techniques probably are deadly, if run 100%. The same for the Arnis vids, if only they were shown more graphically instead of the other guy just standing there we could get that point too.

 

[HKphooey]

One can easily sit back an critique any clip. I bet people outside of Kenpo would find many faults in many of the Parker clips we have seen. Most are made to help train others, not make then hit rewind 8,000 times and "slow mo" the clips so they can pick up the material. This is why I give anyone who posts a clip of themselves on MT (or the web in general) a lot of credit.

 

[Flying Crane]

This is why I give anyone who posts a clip of themselves on MT (or the web in general) a lot of credit.

Yah, it's true, man, a lot of bravery to do that, talk about scrutiny!