Technique Variations

[MBuzzy]

I'm wondering how many variations there are to a certain technique?

For example, Shomenuchi Ikkyo, you have an omote and an ura variation. But beyond that, are there multiple ways to execute shomenuchi ikkyo? The name only implies the attack and the way that the wrist is being manipulated (if I understand correctly). So it seems to me that there are multiple ways to defend from a shomenuchi and still use an ikkyo manipulation.

Beyond that, does every school and every style of Aikido execute a Shomenuchi Ikkyo the same way? Or does this federation have one way, another school have another way, etc?

I suppose it just seems to me that there are some very basic concepts, but thousands of ways to apply those concepts to achieve your goal.

 

[7starmarc]

I am very new to Aikido, so perhaps someone else can shed some other light on the subject. I read recently, however, that O'Sensei was actually not very enthusiastic about giving names to the techniques, feeling that each time you performed a technique, there was a uniqueness to it. It wasn't until later, when students insisted on a more codified system, that naming came into being. Again, in my limited experience, I have seen the same moves called by different names in videos, demonstrations, etc. across schools, so I don't doubt that there are many variations that you will find. Even within my dojo, in a given session, techniques will be performed slightly (but significantly) differently depending upon uke and nage (experience, skill, relative size, slight variation of the attack, etc.).

 

[CuongNhuka]

I am very new to Aikido, so perhaps someone else can shed some other light on the subject. I read recently, however, that O'Sensei was actually not very enthusiastic about giving names to the techniques, feeling that each time you performed a technique, there was a uniqueness to it. It wasn't until later, when students insisted on a more codified system, that naming came into being. Again, in my limited experience, I have seen the same moves called by different names in videos, demonstrations, etc. across schools, so I don't doubt that there are many variations that you will find. Even within my dojo, in a given session, techniques will be performed slightly (but significantly) differently depending upon uke and nage (experience, skill, relative size, slight variation of the attack, etc.).

Quote for truth

 

[amir]

I'm wondering how many variations there are to a certain technique?

For example, Shomenuchi Ikkyo, you have an omote and an ura variation. But beyond that, are there multiple ways to execute shomenuchi ikkyo? The name only implies the attack and the way that the wrist is being manipulated (if I understand correctly). So it seems to me that there are multiple ways to defend from a shomenuchi and still use an ikkyo manipulation.

Beyond that, does every school and every style of Aikido execute a Shomenuchi Ikkyo the same way? Or does this federation have one way, another school have another way, etc?

I suppose it just seems to me that there are some very basic concepts, but thousands of ways to apply those concepts to achieve your goal.

I do not practice Ueshiba Aikido, rather Korindo-Aikido, so I can not seriously comment on the latter post.

But, as far as variations for Shomenuchi Ikkyo(we use the same technical name, possibly due to lack of any naming efforts in Korindo). Do note that Ikkyo pressures the elbow and shoulder, not the wrist. I know of multiple varitions, some examples ofvariation For Omote application are :
* Which hand of Tori leads the the attacking hand (you can use your front hand to lead the wrist, or the second hand to lead the elbow).
-> A sub-variation, leading all the way with the front hand and adding the elbow hand only after Kuzushi and twist.
* Tori steps, Does Tori step back or does he only twist in place (the latter is more common in Korindo).
* If pressure is applied on the elbow, there several variations for the exact direction of pressure.
* Does Tori even Hold Uke? (I know a variation without ever getting a full hold, most tend to hold)
-> if hoding, how is the wrist held?
* When does Tori create breaking force on Uke Elbow? During the preliminary movement (more break less control) or only after Uke is bent over (more contrl\take down, less break)?
* Is there any pressure (via leverage) on the shoulder, most variations aviod this, some create such pressure.
* where is the throw directed? (directly at Tori feet, with a turn, or post the first turn in the counter direction)

Some would say this creats multiple techniques, others would call each change a variation, and still others would consider all to be the same, since in most cases to achieve aiki, Tori should apply the correct reaction to Uke intention and action, and has much less chioce then it would seem.


Amir

 

[MBuzzy]

I originally come from a traditional Korean striking art....where each technique has a single name. choongdankongkyuk is ALWAYS center punch and only center punch. There is one way to do it. Of course, in my old style, there are no names for any kinds of joint manipulations or self defense techniques. We had them, there are just no names. So I guess I'm trying to reconcile the differences. It seems logical to me that the name is talking more about a family of techniques than a single technique. If someone tells me to do a shomenuchi ikkyo, I may have a few choices....

Is this a correct idea?

 

[B'Dragon]

At first, to a beginner, a technique (such as Shomenuchi Ikkyo) would look like it is excuted the same. But, as you train you start to see that every style, Aikikai, Ki, Tomiki, Shcool of Ueshiba, etc. has a slightly different way of doing the same technique, the as you progress further you see personal stylistic differences. Beyound that you can see a teacher's style within their students.

So while a basic Shomenuchi Ikkyo is a Shomenuchi Ikkyo as you train you start to see differences.

B'Dragon

 

[CuongNhuka]

At first, to a beginner, a technique (such as Shomenuchi Ikkyo) would look like it is excuted the same. But, as you train you start to see that every style, Aikikai, Ki, Tomiki, Shcool of Ueshiba, etc. has a slightly different way of doing the same technique, the as you progress further you see personal stylistic differences. Beyound that you can see a teacher's style within their students.

So while a basic Shomenuchi Ikkyo is a Shomenuchi Ikkyo as you train you start to see differences.

B'Dragon

Also quoted for truth

 

[theletch1]

Keep in mind, Craig, that aikido is taught much more from the angle of learning the concept/theory of motion/interaction than from technique (a) against attack (b). While Nihon Goshin Aikido only has 50 classic techniques we have several thousand ways to apply those techniques. The basic arm bar for instance may be used against almost any attack. You simply need to understand that the arm bar consists of creating a fulcrum at the elbow and using the wrist as the end of your lever. That same arm bar can be applied to the round house, upper cut, overhand, backhand... you name the attack and that technique can be used. It's just a different path that you'll travel depending on the attack to get to the same punch. That's one of the things I love about the art of aikido. I'm not tied into the mindset that a right roundhouse should be met with a certain technique. I'm of the mindset that I simply need to enter and accept the energy of the roundhouse and the technique will happen as I "go with the flow". Sometimes it will flow into one technique sometimes into another but flow it does.

 

[Jenna]

As always from everyone, very clear posts so far

Omote and ura are the standard variants and but since ikkyo itself is one of the pillars of any Aikido naturally there are any number of ways to get to it, yet technically we are not then executing shomen uchi ikkyo in variant. The fact is that it does not matter unless you are being asked specifically to demo shomen uchi ikkyo or are grading etc. In any randori (or Lord forbid, real world) I say use whatever feels natural or literally comes to hand first.

Most schools will execute any given tech similarly when done "by the book" with neat uke and tori and but as I say, in randori, of necessity, there is give and take. Likewise though, you can choose to enter early before uke's atemi has reached full power - OR - and since I am smaller I will try to allow uke his chance to overstretch in order to break balance more efficiently. O'Sensei I believe preferred the former approach. And my point is that, yes, the technique has a core premise and but execution can vary. And similarly MBuzzy, I would wonder when you say "choongdankongkyuk is ALWAYS center punch and only center punch" does that not depend on the circumstances? I mean depending upon your opponent's relative position at the time of the attack; who he is; what he is leading with; what tech you are intending to follow up the choongdankongkyuk with, etc. etc... surely those factors will determine subtleties in how you throw your choongdankongkyuk, no?

I know some Aikido schools do no randori - shame on you all and but variations, yes. Oh and my own Aikikai - anywhere I have been with it, the shomen uchi, being so fundamental is generally recognisable. Also, that of the Shodokan/Tomiki is identical. I cannot speak for other styles

I worry that everything I have just said is common sense. I do not mean to sound patronising to anyone

Good luck
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[charyuop]

Unfortunately I cannot find the video anymore. A teacher in Italy was showing different ways to apply ikkyo principle and it managed to show 20ish different ways. He started on the base that ikkyo is the control of uke's body through the elbow (disrupting through the shoulder's movement the body posture). Many of those I would have never guessed it was ikkyo principle.

Anyway even if I leave the video out personally I have practiced different kind of ikkyo. Most of them might look to someone from outside the same thing, but are two ikkyo the same application even tho they look perfectly the same? If you mention the principle, then yes (or better that's what we all are aiming at LOL). But the ways to apply the principle are different.
Is it the ikkyo which is different? Yes and no. It is the attack (the way the energy is delivered) which is different due to different things like timing, power, distance or you might have different location characteristics that force your reaction in a certain way. It is unthinkable to use ikkyo always the same way. I felt on me ikkyo that crushed me, ikkyo that literally made me jump for the pain, ikkyo that lead me to the ground in a way so gentle that I felt like lying down on the floor (LOL).

The more I do Aikido, the more I think Aikido is one big principle. Be it ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo, shihonage, sumi otoshi or others and whatever they might look like work (at least for me, when they do LOL, I am far from being good) only if I use the same principle: let that freaking uke's hand go wherever it wants to go. As soon as I stop it or go against it I am the one who goes down.
I might be wrong, but the best technique to prove this theory is Shihonage. You go where Uke's hand wants to go and the technique comes out so good that uke till the end doesn't realize he is going down. Get the wrong direction, I mean don't go with the hand, and you get the biggest fight like "the strongest wins" that you can ever see. Of course with go where the hand wants to go doesn't mean you cannot redirect

 

[charyuop]

I couldn't find it coz I wrongly remembered it was an Italian video. I found today, again by chance. Hopefully it helps to answer your question.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXeuLITHVXM&feature=channel