Beginner Receiving Constant Varying Feedback from Different Students

[Sukerkin]

"Just smile, try to do what he asks for that moment — then forget about it and go back to doing what the sensei told you (keep it centered!) when you move on to the next partner. (shrug)"

This is such good advice that I, as the saying goes, 'quoted it for truth'.


Don't let it get under your skin, Jurat. This sort of thing happens all the time and in all disciplines.

The martial arts are a place where we tend to see it more often because of the nature of the training and it is also the case that the art 'changes' for you as you mature both in skill and age. That is how you can have people who hold high grades in an art who disagree with how another of similar rank performs a technique.

My sensei tells us to follow a very simple guideline on this issue.

If someone of senior rank is teaching us something and it differs from the way that sensei has taught us, do it the way the person instructing you at the time wants you to do it. If you get chance afterwards to explain how what was just taught differs from what you had learned before then do so but only in a way that steers clear of "Youre wrong" type of inferences .

He rounds off by saying Iai is about adapting to circumstances as well as being in control of yourself and the sword. So, if you are taught a variation on a kata learn both.

I find this a very sensible position and have made use of it on those occasions where I have been 'corrected' on a technique. After all, I'm not much of a swordsman if I can't purposefully change an element of what I'm doing.

 

[charyuop]

Getting close to the 2 years of Aikido and trust me I use muscle all the time. I don't think it's something you can lose quickly, and yes, we big guys tend to muscle people around alot. I tell you more. My Sensei, for sure your Sensei too and your Senpai, can tell you that you are about to use muscles even before you start...just by looking at your shoulders.
But no, it is not the job of the senior student to stop you and correct you.
With a newer guy than me I usually let him do few tries and then I stop him in the middle of the technique, but not using words. I know how to stop him at his level using a better posture. This way he has the chance to correct himself. With a guy who is at my level (grrrr envy, maybe even better grrrrr) I let him go once or twice, even tho he realizes on his own he is doing it wrong, then after that I try to take advantage of his mistake and reverse the technique. No way I can do it, maybe once out of 500 LOL, but he realizes immediately what he did wrong and adjusts.

I have always said Uke job is not easy. Helping someone else to learn Aikido in my opinion is harder than learning it.

 

[Brian King]

Jurat13 wrote

“On another unrelated issue. The dojo is hosting a seminar by a highly ranked instructor from out of town. The instructors want students to do a thorough cleaning of the dojo on the weekend before the seminar begins. However, the cleaning shall be completed at the sacrifice of training. I was under the impression that we would still hold a morning practice, and then everyone pitches in and does a thorough cleaning after that. But the actual plan is to cancel class all together.

I understand the concept of community/communal help, etc. But now it is coming at the expense of instruction that I am paying for. I am paying for the seminar, and I also pay a monthly fee for instruction. In other words this is still a business transaction. I am paying for a service, and expect to receive value in return.

What are your thoughts? Again please feel free to give me your honest opinion.”

Thank you for the thread and the chance to join in with some honest conversation.
The simple first

You wrote “However, the cleaning shall be completed at the sacrifice of training.”

This is an interesting and honest statement and speaks of your conflict and it also points out further conflict that you may have in the future during your Aikido journey. First the disclaimers LOL I do not do nor have I done “Aikido” but I do have good relationships with many that do and long relationship between our school of Russian Martial Art and an Aikido school that shares a wall with us.

If you consider Aikido training the collection of techniques to be applied to preset conditions and expectations then it is my opinion that you are selling your training cheap and short. Good Aikido is more than a merely collection and understanding of techniques. It might be a little too much information for you right now but trust me if you will, if your school is a good one you are learning many lessons even with out you being completely aware of them. Relationships and trust are important in martial training (and in life) and building them takes practice and grace.

My opinion is to show up and enthusiastically pitch in and get your training area up to the standards expected. Nobody says that while you are all busy dusting and wiping that you cannot ask questions of the seniors and your peers. There is much philosophy that can be explained while changing light bulbs, much of ones life’s experiences can be shared while wiping and oiling weapon displays. The seniors have much to share and so do you and both have much to learn from each other, not just the twist and spiral here and rotate this stuff. It can humanize the seniors when you see them gladly scrubbing the toilets and it can humble a person to see one doing a job that you thought too lowly for you to do, and see them receiving a value from the doing of it.

OK now on to the more interesting of your first two questions.
"Beginner Receiving Constant Varying Feedback from Different Students "

It has been my observations that many times people offering ‘help’ are actually helping themselves more than the person they are giving the advice to. Talking thru a technique is a means that some students use to better understand the technique. Their offering advice to you is a means of their trying to gain insight and better understanding of the technique, hence their parroting of different instructors and the instructors advice, and their making up on the spot the ‘corrections’ and the ‘errors’ unfortunately in their limited understanding more often than not they get it wrong and confuse themselves and their training partner in the process.

It might also be a bit of ego but just as often (or more so) it is more fear than ego. If a student has a training partner that intimidates them a bit, and/or if they are doing a technique that they are just a little uncomfortable with, it is a learned defensive tool to appear helpful and knowledgeable, yet at the same time slow down the training, ease the ‘realism’ and resistance offered and to reinforce the self esteem that might be suffering even at the subconscious levels by demonstrating a superior level of understanding. Understanding and recognizing the differences between fear and ego motivations is useful both in martial work and in life.

Often a person that is nervous has a bit of nervous energy about them and will feel the need to ‘chatter’ and being as this is a martial class and usually chatter is limited but helpful guidance and instruction are not so limited, the result is an abundance of talking about the technique rather than doing the technique.

Sometimes a person is fatigued (or just plain lazy) and correcting and talking about a technique is a means of stalling and recollecting themselves.

Some people just feel the need to be helpful or thought of as helpful.

There are many different motivations and the same person can have many different motivations at different times. The trick is to start to learn to recognize and understand them.

It is not related to just beginner students Jurat13, if you watch and listen you will see all levels offering advice to training partners needed or not, especially at events where it is not mandatory to wear a gi or colored belt uniform thing. It is just one of those things to be smiled at and understood. The training partner teaches and often it is more than merely technique that they demonstrate and teach understanding human nature betters you to understand your own. Seeing weaknesses and strength in others betters you to value and understand your own. As you gain in experience and understanding your options as to how to deal with the situation also increase.

Here is an example of one persons dealing with it that I witnessed. I was at one of the Aiki expo events that Stanley Pranin of aikidojournal.com hosted several years ago and one of our students (also a long time Aikido practitioner) was working with a very large black belt senior student of the instructor teaching the workshop (a law enforcement DT type of workshop) and this black belt started to offer the student advice right from the beginning before even feeling her work. My back was turned but I heard that distinctive boom…thud that somebody makes when they take a bad fall and collision with both floor and wall that made me turn to see if anyone was injured. There was our tiny student asking sweetly “like that?” to a large black belt piled in heap ten feet away from her with a dazed look on his face. I was not alone in working hard to suppress my laughter at his expense and later ribbing the girl not to beat up the big black belts. Those were great events with over 800 participants and lots of great training and relationships built, big black belt hitting the wall in a heap not withstanding.

I do not know it in Spanish but there is the Mexican saying that if one person calls you an burro (the other term for that animal is how I learned the saying LOL) they are the burro but if three people call you a burro it might be time to buy a comfortable saddle! If one person tells you that you are muscling too much it is different than if three are saying so.

Jurat13 wrote:

“Nevertheless, do bigger students in softer styles become perceived to only want to use strength and not use technique and thus receive more corrections?”

Not in my experience. Often men no matter their size want to use their strength first and technique second. That is in fact natural and how many martial arts became needed and developed. First we use strength but then meet somebody just a strong or stronger so then we move on to techniques to help. Watch a newer smaller male working with a bigger male and notice how they will try to muscle and force their way through a technique even though they are weaker and smaller. Watch two males (especially those that are similar in size and perceived strength) that do not know each other well as they first start to work and notice how ones tensing and trying to muscle will affect the other to up the ante and to also use strength and tension to win the technique. Want to watch a series of frustrations have a person that is used to muscling their way thru a technique work with somebody that is SO much smaller or weaker than they are (Child, smaller female, older person, somebody frail)that they cannot in good consciousness use strength try to work their technique without the muscling.

One way to keep yourself from becoming ‘that guy’ that has to use his strength is to exhaust those muscles past failure before doing the technique so that you can not use muscles even if you want to. For example if you are doing techniques that will require your arms put yourself into a static push-up/press-up position and hold it perfectly still for ten or fifteen minutes (or whatever your range is) prior to your turn. If less time is available just complete one push-up really really slow. Take at least 30 seconds or one minute to go from the top of the push-up position to one inch of the ground then take the same amount of time to slowing go back to the top position. Or you can do a quick pyramid of pushups, during one inhale or one exhale complete one pushup, then during one inhale or exhale do two push-ups, then during one inhale/exhale do three push-ups…work you way up to nine or twelve or so then work your way back down so if nine (or six or whatever) was your high number of reps your next is one less all the way back to one. Then do your techniques.

Regards
Brian King

 

[Logan]

Without knowing the ins and outs I would take everything with a pinch of salt....

What is most important in Aikido is remembering the basic priniciples. There are countless variations of techniques but for it to be "good" aikido, the technique must allign as closely as possible with the basics.

The size and weight of uke, distance, timing and everything else contributes to what variation of technique you utilise at what particular moment.

So, against one uke of a particular size and weight and all the other factors, he/she might give feedback of "what they think" is the most appropriate correction at that particular time. This is not to say that it is wrong but nor may it always be right.

You must also remember that your aikido is just your aikido and what works for one person may not work for another. Again, try and remember the basics - if someone is muscling a technique, it is probably bad.

This may be slightly controversial but don't take everything the sensei says as law either. I have visited plenty of dojos where the teacher, although perhaps focusing on a particular point, has completely lost track of other factors involved in a technique. In these cases, students - who may or may not be of higher grade than the teacher - may be able to correct you. As a beginner, it is often difficult to separate crap from crap or quality from different quality.

Without waffling further, it may come with time but trust your own judgement. Take on board what people say but find out what works for you, keep the basic principles always in mind and you will make progress.

 

[charyuop]

Without knowing the ins and outs I would take everything with a pinch of salt....

What is most important in Aikido is remembering the basic priniciples. There are countless variations of techniques but for it to be "good" aikido, the technique must allign as closely as possible with the basics.

The size and weight of uke, distance, timing and everything else contributes to what variation of technique you utilise at what particular moment.

So, against one uke of a particular size and weight and all the other factors, he/she might give feedback of "what they think" is the most appropriate correction at that particular time. This is not to say that it is wrong but nor may it always be right.

You must also remember that your aikido is just your aikido and what works for one person may not work for another. Again, try and remember the basics - if someone is muscling a technique, it is probably bad.

This may be slightly controversial but don't take everything the sensei says as law either. I have visited plenty of dojos where the teacher, although perhaps focusing on a particular point, has completely lost track of other factors involved in a technique. In these cases, students - who may or may not be of higher grade than the teacher - may be able to correct you. As a beginner, it is often difficult to separate crap from crap or quality from different quality.

Without waffling further, it may come with time but trust your own judgement. Take on board what people say but find out what works for you, keep the basic principles always in mind and you will make progress.

Not too early to make such a discussion? Mind I am not saying it is wrong. But maybe before reaching a "principle" and "feeling" talk he needs to start chewing the how to move and stand part.

 

[Logan]

Not too early to make such a discussion? Mind I am not saying it is wrong. But maybe before reaching a "principle" and "feeling" talk he needs to start chewing the how to move and stand part.

What on earth do you think basic principles refer to? Good posture and movement are the core principles of any martial art.......I don't remember writing anything about "feeling"....did you even read before posting?

 

[slink]

I've experienced problems with conflicting advice from time to time. What I have learned is that the quality of advice is typically in proportion to the experience of the person giving it. We have multiple people at I-Kyu and Shodan level at my school and I have learned that when these people give me seemingly conflicting advice what they are really giving me are perfectly valid points of view. One person may say to do one thing to improve your technique and another person may tell you something different to improve your technique; both of them may be correct. However, and this is very rare, I have also encountered people of lower kyu levels (still more advanced than me though) who are sincerely trying to help you but are actually steering you off course. Sometimes the best indicator of this is to try out their suggestion and see if anything actually does improve. The advice about asking a more senior student or your sensei for clarification is great if you have that option.

 

[jurat13]

Everyone,

Thank you for taking the time to provide me with responses to my post. I appreciated your opinions, and weighed them carefully.

FYI, I decided to not continue my instruction at this school at this time. Perhaps I am not at a point in my life and training where I can truly appreciate this style of instruction and training offered at this school. Perhaps I was the problem.

Nevertheless, I have enrolled in another school, and style, and am enjoying the instruction, and interaction with my fellow students thus far.

This is not to say that I feel this style and instruction is better than Aikido. In addition, this is definitely not an indictment against Aikido or that school, but more so a realization that perhaps I am the square peg trying to fit into the round circle.

Thanks again for your advice and opinions.

Best Regards,

Walter

 

[jks9199]

Everyone,

Thank you for taking the time to provide me with responses to my post. I appreciated your opinions, and weighed them carefully.

FYI, I decided to not continue my instruction at this school at this time. Perhaps I am not at a point in my life and training where I can truly appreciate this style of instruction and training offered at this school. Perhaps I was the problem.

Nevertheless, I have enrolled in another school, and style, and am enjoying the instruction, and interaction with my fellow students thus far.

This is not to say that I feel this style and instruction is better than Aikido. In addition, this is definitely not an indictment against Aikido or that school, but more so a realization that perhaps I am the square peg trying to fit into the round circle.

Thanks again for your advice and opinions.

Best Regards,

Walter

There's absolutely nothing wrong with recognizing that a style or school isn't the right one for you. I think you'll find that to be an oft-repeated concept here on MT. I'm glad you're in a place that you're happier now -- but you will almost certainly run into some of the same issues down the road, so take the lessons with you. (Posters on this thread represented at least 4 or 5 different styles, off the top of my head...)

 

[Kacey]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with recognizing that a style or school isn't the right one for you. I think you'll find that to be an oft-repeated concept here on MT. I'm glad you're in a place that you're happier now -- but you will almost certainly run into some of the same issues down the road, so take the lessons with you. (Posters on this thread represented at least 4 or 5 different styles, off the top of my head...)

Indeed. The instructor's teaching style, the format and atmosphere of the class, and the other students are, ultimately, much more important than a particular MA; you could find the "ultimate" MA (if such a thing exists), love it intensely, and still not keep with it if the other factors are not to your liking - no matter how good the style is, if you don't like the class and/or the instructor, you're going to have serious problems sticking with it. Finding a different class, one that suits you, is the best way to go - here's hoping you've found the right fit for yourself!