Technique practicality

[Sapper6]

Hmm, I'm in the wrong place (EPAK forum)?

yeah you are. take a look around. this is a discussion forum, where questions are asked and discussion takes place. i ask a question and you say "The best thing for you to do is to get back in the studio and off the internet, find the answers to these questions in your own training. Asking for opinions is asking for trouble." stop the train. someone needs to tell Bob Hubbard this whole forum thing is a waste of time and money, no more questions from here on out! so who's outta their element here, "bub"?

If you'll notice, none of my posts have been in anything but Kenpo...

sure they're about kenpo, just never has anything to do with the thread topic or questions posed, that's of course because "question askers" are beneath you.

...and I reiterate, I have the answers so I don't need to ask these questions...

hhmm, ok. your system's creator openly states he didn't have all the answers, i guess that makes you better and smarter...riiight. keep on believing that one. you fail to master casual conversation, how'd you master kenpo?

BTW, you sound like a spoiled child when told they have to work to earn the money for a car when they get their driver's license instead of good ole mommy/daddy buying it for you. To learn it is to earn it, to earn it is to respect it.

real display of maturity there.

god forbid someone ask a kenpo question while you're around. work on your manners a little more, it'll make you a better person, and a better martial artist.

to everyone else, thanks again for the time you took to offer a little piece of insight.

cheers,

:asian:

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

yeah you are. take a look around. this is a discussion forum, where questions are asked and discussion takes place. i ask a question and you say "The best thing for you to do is to get back in the studio and off the internet, find the answers to these questions in your own training. Asking for opinions is asking for trouble." stop the train. someone needs to tell Bob Hubbard this whole forum thing is a waste of time and money, no more questions from here on out! so who's outta their element here, "bub"?

Yea, it really is a waste of time and money, besides, I'm only here to watch and create a little drama for the wannabees.

DarK LorD

 

[MJS]

And the last 2 posts on this thread pertain to it how exactly?? I really don't see anything productive coming out of them so can we try to get back on topic?? Also, feel free to use that little "Ignore" button found on everyones profile.

So....back to the discussion of technique practicality!! :ultracool

Mike

 

[pete]

ok mike, its really a silly discussion anyway. the system and the statement speak for themselves.

yes, there is more to American Kenpo than each individual technique's apparent street practicality.

no, there are no techniques that are flawed by-design and won't work against the attack they were meant to be used against.

yes, techniques will fail based on an individual's ability and understanding of how, when, and why to use it.

no, there are no attacks that simply will never happen, some are just more likely than others to start out that way.

yes, category completion is the stock answer when there is a lack of understanding. how can categories ever be completed if the insights are infinite....

pete

 

[Kenpodoc]

ok mike, its really a silly discussion anyway. the system and the statement speak for themselves.

yes, there is more to American Kenpo than each individual technique's apparent street practicality.

no, there are no techniques that are flawed by-design and won't work against the attack they were meant to be used against.

yes, techniques will fail based on an individual's ability and understanding of how, when, and why to use it.

no, there are no attacks that simply will never happen, some are just more likely than others to start out that way.

yes, category completion is the stock answer when there is a lack of understanding. how can categories ever be completed if the insights are infinite....

pete

Huk Planas helped design the system and states that when they designed it some parts of techniques were placed in the system for category completion. I think that you can argue that all of the techniques can be made to work, you can argue that some use category completion too readily, but if Huk says that he put a part of a technique in the system for category completion, perhaps we should believe him.

Jeff

 

[Seabrook]

Uh, oh....here we go with the category completion stuff...

I can just see what is coming, LOL.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[MisterMike]

Well, if anyone wants to stand in a horse stance facing 12:00 and punch to 9:00 or 3:00 (end of Long 1), that's their perrogative.

 

[MJS]

ok mike, its really a silly discussion anyway. the system and the statement speak for themselves.

yes, there is more to American Kenpo than each individual technique's apparent street practicality.

no, there are no techniques that are flawed by-design and won't work against the attack they were meant to be used against.

yes, techniques will fail based on an individual's ability and understanding of how, when, and why to use it.

no, there are no attacks that simply will never happen, some are just more likely than others to start out that way.

yes, category completion is the stock answer when there is a lack of understanding. how can categories ever be completed if the insights are infinite....

pete

Well, if we stop and think about it, there are many silly discussions that take place. Many of them get a few replies and then they die. The original thread poster stated that he did not have a background in EPAK, so apparently this was not too silly of a discussion for him.

The in-thread warning and the nudge by myself were done to get the thread back on track because the topic was going off thread!

There are 2 simple solutions to things:

1- Use that ignore feature if someone does not want to read someone elses posts.

2- If a discussion is silly or does not interest someone, they simply don't have to post there!

Mike

 

[pete]

well mike, i guess i didn't see it as going off too far thread. The underlying intent, as i see it, to be asking such a question without a background in American Kenpo, is one in a long line of attempts to shortcut the system.

hey, EPAK looks cool! i have a friend whose uncle's barber does it, but it took him like 6 years to get a blackbelt. maybe if i eliminate the stuff that doesnt work anyway i can learn it in a year and a half.

... not sure if that was what was written, but that's what i read...

learn the system. train hard, seek knowledge, and develop a full understanding... especially with the stuff you dont think works. dont bail out anything you have a little trouble with as category completion, or errors in the system strategically placed as a test, or other ludicrous ideas. some posters might be a little more tired of seeing this attitude than me and just tell 'em directly get onto the mats and come back when you have a real question. i agree with that, just said it differently.

... and yes i know how the ignore buttons work, having joined this forum at roughly the same time as you, and by posting only about 15% the number of posts would seem i'd be relatively judicious regarding where and when i do post.

pete

 

[Sapper6]

well mike, i guess i didn't see it as going off too far thread. The underlying intent, as i see it, to be asking such a question without a background in American Kenpo, is one in a long line of attempts to shortcut the system.

hey, EPAK looks cool! i have a friend whose uncle's barber does it, but it took him like 6 years to get a blackbelt. maybe if i eliminate the stuff that doesnt work anyway i can learn it in a year and a half.

... not sure if that was what was written, but that's what i read...

learn the system. train hard, seek knowledge, and develop a full understanding... especially with the stuff you dont think works. dont bail out anything you have a little trouble with as category completion, or errors in the system strategically placed as a test, or other ludicrous ideas. some posters might be a little more tired of seeing this attitude than me and just tell 'em directly get onto the mats and come back when you have a real question. i agree with that, just said it differently.

... and yes i know how the ignore buttons work, having joined this forum at roughly the same time as you, and by posting only about 15% the number of posts would seem i'd be relatively judicious regarding where and when i do post.

pete

pete,

you are sorely mistaken about my intentions behind starting this thread. i'm not looking for any manner of shortcut. it's curiosity plain and simple. i've been a student of martial arts since i was a young child, 1991 to be exact, having actively studied 4 different systems. at one time, i did study American kenpo, but do not anymore. i often find myself dwelling into the "general" topics Mr. Parker often touched on, especially in the Infinite Insights series. the reason i refer to them as "general", is because you don't have to be a student of American Kenpo to understand what he is trying to convey; as they would apply to all forms of unarmed combat, regardless of system. i am seeking clarification from American Kenpoists on a philosophy stated by the grandmaster of American Kenpo. if you perceive my intentions in any other manner, then you are simply wrong.

i should't feel obligated to quit my current study to study American Kenpo, just because i have specific questions. that is the purpose behind having a forum, especially one such as this. if you have troubles in answering those questions, then don't reply. and certainly, don't form your own opinions about the motivations behind such questions.

this thread was never about the "stuff that doesn't work". other people who took part in this thread made it seem that way. this thread was about the practicality of techniques, as it applies to the kenpo system as a whole. i took a stated quote from the grandmaster of kenpo, and simply asked for their interpretation of said quote. don't take what others have said and use this as ammunition against my creating this discussion.

i am on the mat no less than five nights a week, i just don't wear a Kenpo crest on my chest. this makes me no less of a person than the one who does.

the entire reason behind MT's existence is for discussion of the martial arts. people are entitled to ask questions about things they wouldn't necessarily understand bluntly. they shouldn't be criticized for asking such questions, by you nor anyone else. if you feel you have something informative and helpful to offer in aiding their understanding, then all is welcomed. but...if you possess the inability to answer their questions, then refrain from conversation; don't redicule and criticize them.

good day,

:asian:

 

[Bode]

Let's not let this turn into KenpoNet...

Sapper6, do you have any other questions or clarifications regarding this topic?

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Pete:

There are many in kenpo -- including some of the seniors and semi-seniors -- who have concerns regarding the pragmatic application of techniques, fresh out of the box. There are many who do not practice the extensions, because they don't see the point, not because they don't know them. Category completion, me thinks, is less important than being able to actually defend yourself when the poop hits the fan; a skill missing in many kenpo black belts...folks who know the techs, thier definitions like the backs of their hands, etc.

There is the art of our art, and there is the part where the rubber meets the road. I don't think dialogue about the similarities and differences is necessarily a bad thing, even if all the parties aren't in agreement. It sounds like you're suggesting dialogue regarding these matters is pointless, particularly in the face of knowledge possessed by the true few who know.

I'm not sure I agree.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Sapper6]

Let's not let this turn into KenpoNet...

Sapper6, do you have any other questions or clarifications regarding this topic?

not right now, but stay tuned :supcool: .

thanks for your contribution :asian:

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

ok mike, its really a silly discussion anyway. the system and the statement speak for themselves.

yes, there is more to American Kenpo than each individual technique's apparent street practicality.

no, there are no techniques that are flawed by-design and won't work against the attack they were meant to be used against.

yes, techniques will fail based on an individual's ability and understanding of how, when, and why to use it.

no, there are no attacks that simply will never happen, some are just more likely than others to start out that way.

yes, category completion is the stock answer when there is a lack of understanding. how can categories ever be completed if the insights are infinite....

pete

Dude, you are so THE MAN LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DarK LorD

 

[MJS]

well mike, i guess i didn't see it as going off too far thread. The underlying intent, as i see it, to be asking such a question without a background in American Kenpo, is one in a long line of attempts to shortcut the system.

hey, EPAK looks cool! i have a friend whose uncle's barber does it, but it took him like 6 years to get a blackbelt. maybe if i eliminate the stuff that doesnt work anyway i can learn it in a year and a half.

... not sure if that was what was written, but that's what i read...

learn the system. train hard, seek knowledge, and develop a full understanding... especially with the stuff you dont think works. dont bail out anything you have a little trouble with as category completion, or errors in the system strategically placed as a test, or other ludicrous ideas. some posters might be a little more tired of seeing this attitude than me and just tell 'em directly get onto the mats and come back when you have a real question. i agree with that, just said it differently.

... and yes i know how the ignore buttons work, having joined this forum at roughly the same time as you, and by posting only about 15% the number of posts would seem i'd be relatively judicious regarding where and when i do post.

pete

Well Pete, asking a question is hardly a crime IMO. As for things being off topic, please check out this link:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?&threadid=314&

The snipes and personal shots that were taking place is what is off topic! This is not the place for it!

I think that it would be best for the discussion to return to topic please!

Mike

 

[shesulsa]

**Moderator Note**

Please, return to the original topic and keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-G Ketchmark / shesulsa
-MT Senior Moderator-

 

[pete]

i dont think i was mistaken on this one at all. if someone were to develop a real interest in AK, looking for hidden meanings behind some obscure statement made by its founder is not the place to start. this is my opinion, not fact, so please feel free to disagree. but, i'd argue that is about as good a place to start as jumping into Long-4 and asking about the double secret applications hiding in the transitions.

aside from that opinion, i did answer the question in my post #44.

dr dave hit the nail on the head. those who have been through the system and know it are in a position to choose how and what to practice. those of us who haven't put a lifetime into it yet, should be developing an understanding of how when and why a technique will work, rather than looking for excuses to rationalize their own deficiency in ability, knowledge or both.

case in point: mistermike's elementary view of the 'punches' at the end of long-1.

once you accept the fact that each of the techniques in all of the incarnations of kenpo will 'work' under the prescribed conditions, then you can adjust, regulate, and modify (ARM) those techniques based on the environment and target availability. there in is where our similarities and differences lie, and dialogue regarding these options is where there is value.

pete

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

i dont think i was mistaken on this one at all. if someone were to develop a real interest in AK, looking for hidden meanings behind some obscure statement made by its founder is not the place to start. this is my opinion, not fact, so please feel free to disagree. but, i'd argue that is about as good a place to start as jumping into Long-4 and asking about the double secret applications hiding in the transitions.

aside from that opinion, i did answer the question in my post #44.

dr dave hit the nail on the head. those who have been through the system and know it are in a position to choose how and what to practice. those of us who haven't put a lifetime into it yet, should be developing an understanding of how when and why a technique will work, rather than looking for excuses to rationalize their own deficiency in ability, knowledge or both.

case in point: mistermike's elementary view of the 'punches' at the end of long-1.

once you accept the fact that each of the techniques in all of the incarnations of kenpo will 'work' under the prescribed conditions, then you can adjust, regulate, and modify (ARM) those techniques based on the environment and target availability. there in is where our similarities and differences lie, and dialogue regarding these options is where there is value.

pete

I hope your KenpoMama is coming along as nicely as you are LOL. I like your use of ARMing as well with modify on the end, something I'll have to use in future seminars, and make sure you get the credit.

DarK LorD

 

[PBMaster]

I am not a Kenpo Man, however Chinese Martials Artists we are in common. Could it be that non-street worthy techniques might have at their core, elements that might train the mind to use the body in a new way and thus propel him further along in the use of something more street worthy and complex? Perhaps the non-street worthy technique might drill-in some simpler movement which is less practiced by the student and raise his body awareness. Further, perhaps when a simpler movement is incorporated with more elaborate flourishes, in a more street worthy technique, those flourishes may serve to disguise and distract the practitioner from feeling that simpler movement and learning it. Finally, the less street worthy movement might work like a charm in the street, the element of surprise perhaps coming into play.

Many techniques in my system are not first choices for street use. But their simplicity allows the student to really work on a larger critical movment , thus enhancing their timing, balance and coordination.

Children learn to crawl, then walk, then run, then skip, then roll, and eventually they may do back flips. All in good time.

I agree also that student's should sometimes take things at face value. Understanding often comes after mastery. Doesn't mean the student can't try to read into things, but a good instructor/mentor can put "the crystal ball" into better focus and help the process on a little bit. Anyhow, students are not suppose to know and see everything, that's why they are called students.

Interesting Discussion.

PB