Technique Discussion: Striking Serpents Head:Front Bearhug, Arms Free

[MJS]

Dont know why the threads always fizzle here, but maybe we can get them going again Ras.

Anyways, I'll take a stab at your question. If we take a look at Royce Gracie, we'd see him shoot in for the double leg, but sometimes, he'd be a bit higher, clinching around the waist, which to me, was similar to a bearhug. Of course, he was moving, trying to sweep the leg, lift and throw the person, etc. Yup, this is probably whats going to happen if someone bearhugs you. IMO, the base, or stance, is assumed that this will be rock solid, that no matter how hard the person tries to move you, they'll be unable to. While I understand the importance of good stances, I also understand the importance of being mobile. So that leads me to believe that there will be movement, the defender needs to be mobile as well, in an effort to counter the potential takedown, sweep, or whatever the other guy is trying to do.

Now, the next thing that'll probably come is someone will say that you're probably not going to fight a world class grappler on the street. My response to that is...I dont know about anyone else, but I can't predict the future. You may get an idea that the person is skilled, depending on what they're doing, ie: taking up a particular stance, putting their hands in a particular place, and so forth. But until you actually engage with them, you're probably not going to know the level of this person. We dont walk around with signs saying, "Pro MMA fighter", "World class NCAA Wrestler", "Golden Gloves Boxer" LOL.

 

[girlbug2]

Your description is missing a minor move or the bite from the serpents head, for those in the know.
Sean

Hmmm, confused...

 

[girlbug2]

Me like.Except...what if he yanks you off the ground and slams you? Idk of an attacker who will bear hug you and pose.What if he drives you backward with his tackling energy and then yanks you off the ground? That "bracing leg" suggestion may work against unskilled opposition in a relatively low percentage of situations,but it won't work against anybody who's determined to mollywhop you and who secures a bear hug on you.He'll knee you,snatch you off your feet,trip you,run you backwards and tackle you,SOMETHING.

Question: won't "basing out" lead to a scramble? Cuz your opponent will still try to drive into you and may transition to a TACKLE from the bear hug.What do you think about using the Wings (not just the elbow application,the "Wing" as "under and/or over hooks") to combat the bear hug,scramble with those knees and stuff you mentioned,and THEN do the stuff that you recommended?

It's understood that the bear hug is a precursor to something else, usually the intent to pick you up. This is a best case scenario.This tech is supposed to be applied just before or just as the bear hug is being put on. It works well for a static/standing type bear hug. It would cut short any attempt by the attacker to pick you up.

Plan B. For a driving forward tackle there's something else--if you didn't see it coming and first moved out of the way, then Sprawl as soon as the arms come around. Head butt if possible. From there, whatever nasty combatives are in range.

I confess that I'm not very advanced, only the Krav equivalent of a blue belt in EPAK. Haven't covered tackles much. I'll ask about it further in class tomorrow morning and come back with a better answer.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Hmmm, confused...

Thats means hit the guy where it hurts, then try some fancy moves.
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

It's understood that the bear hug is a precursor to something else, usually the intent to pick you up. This is a best case scenario.This tech is supposed to be applied just before or just as the bear hug is being put on. It works well for a static/standing type bear hug. It would cut short any attempt by the attacker to pick you up.

Plan B. For a driving forward tackle there's something else--if you didn't see it coming and first moved out of the way, then Sprawl as soon as the arms come around. Head butt if possible. From there, whatever nasty combatives are in range.

I confess that I'm not very advanced, only the Krav equivalent of a blue belt in EPAK. Haven't covered tackles much. I'll ask about it further in class tomorrow morning and come back with a better answer.

This is against a bear hug arms free.
Sean

 

[girlbug2]

Thats means hit the guy where it hurts, then try some fancy moves.
Sean

I think I was too vague with "combatives". In Krav, it's almost a given you will be attacking the groin as soon as a convenient moment presents itself .

 

[Touch Of Death]

I think I was too vague with "combatives". In Krav, it's almost a given you will be attacking the groin as soon as a convenient moment presents itself .

Good luck with that on this one.
Sean

 

[ATACX GYM]

It's understood that the bear hug is a precursor to something else, usually the intent to pick you up. This is a best case scenario.This tech is supposed to be applied just before or just as the bear hug is being put on. It works well for a static/standing type bear hug. It would cut short any attempt by the attacker to pick you up.

Plan B. For a driving forward tackle there's something else--if you didn't see it coming and first moved out of the way, then Sprawl as soon as the arms come around. Head butt if possible. From there, whatever nasty combatives are in range.

I confess that I'm not very advanced, only the Krav equivalent of a blue belt in EPAK. Haven't covered tackles much. I'll ask about it further in class tomorrow morning and come back with a better answer.

This is a good and honest response,I thank you.I also thought that this was the case.It's my opinion that our 72 Self-Defense scenarios incorporate all of the basic scenarios that we see in SD--Standing,Clinch,Up-Down,Ground,Escape,Surprise Attack,360 degree attacks,weapons,multifights,protecting others--into each technique.We should spar rigorously with each technique in each scenario and be able to flow back and forth effortlessly.We should do this for all 72 techniques,upgrade accordingly,and share this knowledge.It's what I'm doing right now (see my youtube videos in the link in my sig) and USE THIS AS THE BASIS FOR FURTHER TRAINING.Ohter people from whatever walk of life will IMMEDIATELY see that kenpo works and we'll draw more people to us.And other kenpoists and MA's will look at what we've done and improve it further.Ad infinitum.This will be immensely helpful to kenpo.In the process,we won't start "looking like" other systems (I am not a fan of that).We'll maintain the distinct movement patterns of kenpo yet apply our techniques with real world,fluid,dynamic devastation.Addressing the static clinch is crucial.But we need to address the whole of that "clinch" scenario too as a single whole,then break it down into pieces which we spar with,and reintegrate it as a whole...and present and teach it that way.

Just my thoughts.

With respect,

THE ATACX GYM

 

[ATACX GYM]

Dont know why the threads always fizzle here, but maybe we can get them going again Ras.

Anyways, I'll take a stab at your question. If we take a look at Royce Gracie, we'd see him shoot in for the double leg, but sometimes, he'd be a bit higher, clinching around the waist, which to me, was similar to a bearhug. Of course, he was moving, trying to sweep the leg, lift and throw the person, etc. Yup, this is probably whats going to happen if someone bearhugs you. IMO, the base, or stance, is assumed that this will be rock solid, that no matter how hard the person tries to move you, they'll be unable to. While I understand the importance of good stances, I also understand the importance of being mobile. So that leads me to believe that there will be movement, the defender needs to be mobile as well, in an effort to counter the potential takedown, sweep, or whatever the other guy is trying to do.

Now, the next thing that'll probably come is someone will say that you're probably not going to fight a world class grappler on the street. My response to that is...I dont know about anyone else, but I can't predict the future. You may get an idea that the person is skilled, depending on what they're doing, ie: taking up a particular stance, putting their hands in a particular place, and so forth. But until you actually engage with them, you're probably not going to know the level of this person. We dont walk around with signs saying, "Pro MMA fighter", "World class NCAA Wrestler", "Golden Gloves Boxer" LOL.

I've seen Greco wrestlers do the waist shot,I've seen catchwrestlers do it,I've seen Ungala ground fighters do it,I've seen it literally hundreds if not thousands of times on the streets.Almost NEVER was it merely a static clinch.Static clinches happened,but they're the exception...in my experience anyway.

When people tell me stuff like:"You won't run into a world class grappler on the streets in a street fight",I add to your reply.In addition to telling them that Idk WHO I may have to tangle with,I remind them that practically everyone in this nation has had experience with sports like football,horseplay wrestling,boxing (where the clinch happens alot),and some form of playful pushing.None of them will be threatening Dan Gable anytime ever,but they know enough to put you down if you let them.So I'd rather train to deal with the students of Dan Gable and Rhdi Ferguson (judo Olympian,Mundials silver medalist,rising MMA prospect),and people who have at least a college football player's knowledge of the tackle because if I can stop them? I can stop you too.And that's the majority of the people I'm likely to meet and might have some kind of encounter with.

Now I add gun work and multifights and knifework etc. to the mix just in case I'm facing or my students face or I/my students friends loved ones or just in the case of doing my regular daily thing I run into that too.The people who get shot stabbed mugged raped hit by cars and stuff like that? Betcha most of them had NO idea it was coming...and didn't train for it as result.That GUARANTEES that at some point they'd be victimized by these scenarios by someone looking to victimize them.

Better safe than sorry.Expect the unexpected.And allat jazz.


With respect,

THE ATACX GYM

 

[K831]

Dont know why the threads always fizzle here, but maybe we can get them going again Ras.

It's much easier for me to discuss conceptual or general notions in a forum like this. Much more difficult to put technical details about movement and technique application into the written word. I think a lot of people look at some of the threads here and say "good questions/topic, not sure how to type what I want to say, or not sure I have the time to do a "technical" discussion justice. Just my guess?

Anyways, I'll take a stab at your question. If we take a look at Royce Gracie, we'd see him shoot in for the double leg, but sometimes, he'd be a bit higher, clinching around the waist, which to me, was similar to a bearhug. Of course, he was moving, trying to sweep the leg, lift and throw the person, etc. Yup, this is probably whats going to happen if someone bearhugs you. IMO, the base, or stance, is assumed that this will be rock solid, that no matter how hard the person tries to move you, they'll be unable to. While I understand the importance of good stances, I also understand the importance of being mobile. So that leads me to believe that there will be movement, the defender needs to be mobile as well, in an effort to counter the potential takedown, sweep, or whatever the other guy is trying to do.

I really think what you are driving at is one of the "x factors" that great fighters have. That ability to adapt to a constantly changing circumstance. I have seen all too many martial artists get that look of horror when the technique they had such confidence in didn't work. That oh sh%t look. Nothing wrong with the technique, its just that the context changed too rapidly for them to execute. Many of the "defense against x-y-z" techniques we have in Kenpo require an immediate response to the initial attack to work. They are based on that immediate infliction of pain that disrupts the attack and allows for the completion of the technique. If that first 1/4 beat is missed, often times the technique goes to crap. That first disruption is harder to get against an experiences and committed attacker who is pressing the attack and not static. Just like with a defense against a bear hug or grab of any kind, get that first movement and strike off and disrupt the attackers height/depth/width so he can't pick you up or sink the grab or lock and you're good, hesitate, and you have to start adjusting and adapting, which means modify or drop the technique you originally went for.

I think this is an interesting idea for a couple of reasons. We know that action is always faster than reaction. While most legal implications and societal norms say otherwise, if you feel an altercation is eminent, the smartest thing to do first is a preemptive strike. If someone is pressing let your damn hands go. My Kenpo instructor always says something to the effect of "in a bar fight, the first punch was when he stood up from his stool." There are many physical, mental and emotional "first moves" that happen before a punch or tackle that let you know a fight is pretty much inevitable. So many "warrior arts" have techniques based on immediate action or at the very least immediate and definitive reaction. We teach these techniques to many, but what is very rarely taught or discussed is this notion of immediate and aggressive deployment of the technique to make it work.

Kenpo is not a passive art, used with hesitation, it is much much less effective.

Now, the next thing that'll probably come is someone will say that you're probably not going to fight a world class grappler on the street. My response to that is...I dont know about anyone else, but I can't predict the future. You may get an idea that the person is skilled, depending on what they're doing, ie: taking up a particular stance, putting their hands in a particular place, and so forth. But until you actually engage with them, you're probably not going to know the level of this person.

Excellent point. I think it relates to what I said above, and to what Mr. Parker used to say "he who hesitates, mediates in horizontal position."

Again, the smartest and safest approach (speaking of winning a confrontation, not a legal battle) is to assume by default that whoever you do have to tangle with IS IN FACT highly trained and capable of great violence. As such, your first and immediate response should be your most brutal and violent.

We dont walk around with signs saying, "Pro MMA fighter", "World class NCAA Wrestler", "Golden Gloves Boxer" LOL.

You know, I have never been one for free advertising by wearing crap plastered with logos. I don't like to pay extra for name brands (unless its due to genuine increase in quality and functionality) and I don't feel the need to advertise to the general public what my favorite hobbies are. It is interesting though, watching all these guys try and wear their "toughness" on their sleeve with tap out shirts, affliction shorts etc. Someone gets in my face wearing that crap, their getting chopped in the neck extra hard, just in case they are a real fighter, and not a poser!

 

[K831]

When people tell me stuff like:"You won't run into a world class grappler on the streets in a street fight",I add to your reply.In addition to telling them that Idk WHO I may have to tangle with,I remind them that practically everyone in this nation has had experience with sports like football,horseplay wrestling,boxing

Exactly. You get a big strong guy who played HS or college football running at you with the intent of driving you into the ground, you best have your crap together. I don't consider football players fighters, but athletes in general are strong, fast, competitive, and often not afraid of getting their bell rung. People learn a reverse punch and start taking others too lightly.

because if I can stop them? I can stop you too.And that's the majority of the people I'm likely to meet and might have some kind of encounter with.

Exactly! Train to fight the toughest, meanest fighter, and you're on the right track. What did Micky say to Rock Balboa?

"Now, for a 45 minute fight, you gotta train hard for 45,000 minutes. You listening?"

 

[ATACX GYM]

Exactly. You get a big strong guy who played HS or college football running at you with the intent of driving you into the ground, you best have your crap together. I don't consider football players fighters, but athletes in general are strong, fast, competitive, and often not afraid of getting their bell rung. People learn a reverse punch and start taking others too lightly.




Exactly! Train to fight the toughest, meanest fighter, and you're on the right track. What did Micky say to Rock Balboa?

"Now, for a 45 minute fight, you gotta train hard for 45,000 minutes. You listening?"

I always loved me some Micky from Rocky."I didn't hear no bell!' "Get up you sonuvabitch! Cuz...Micky loves ya!"

 

[Yondanchris]

[video=youtube_share;y2pvplNt984]http://youtu.be/y2pvplNt984[/video]

^^^^^^ What Dr. Dave said! ^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[Thesemindz]

The other night with my intermediates we were discussing holds. We went over hand holds, arm holds, head holds, shoulder holds, body holds, and leg holds, both how to apply and use them and how to defend against them.

While doing this I demonstrated a technique I know as a "hi/low body lock." This is a hybrid style of front/rear bear hug with one arm over the opponent's shoulder and one arm under the opponent's armpit. When I was in highschool, a friend of mine who was a wrestler attacked me with this move while we were screwing around before gym class and took me down by driving in with forward pressure, bending me over my lower spine, and pressing me to the floor with him in top position.

Reading through this thread and the discussion about whether this should be a defense against a bear hug, or a tackle, and whether or not it's realistic to do this against static or dynamic attacks made me think of this particular attack. Upthread I discussed how we teach this technique first against a kind of "high charging tackle," and then evolve from there. This hi/low body lock is one type of attack which could naturally follow from the "high charging tackle." In fact, when my buddy did it to me, that's exactly the approach he used. He came at me chest to chest, slammed into my body, and his arms wrapped around me above and below my shoulder on each side. Then they came together behind my back and bent me over backwards.

Just because we practice it from an opponent basically chest bumping us from 12, doesn't mean we shouldn't go the next step and discuss why someone would chest bump us. The first move, which for us is a sandwiching strike between the front of the face and the base of the skull, drives the opponent's head up and back away from us while we base out to establish our strong line. The second move, which is the collar/hair grab and elbow anchor is used to arrest his forward momentum and control the opponent's position while exposing the throat as a target area. The third move, the finisher, is of course the strike to the throat. But there's a hidden fourth move which is the hair grab dragdown. Following the throat strike, if you maintain the rearward pressure on the skull you can do exactly what my buddy did to me. Bend him backwards over his lower spine and drag him down to the floor. If instead you lose the rearward pressure because the opponent reacts explosively to the throat strike by bending forward, then you can rotate the hair grab around the head to a forward position and execute a downward hair grab slam.

There are several possible attacks for this technique from the 12 o'clock angle. But if we understand the key component of establishing the Strong Line against the opponent's Weak Line, we can execute this against the attack from any direction. And if the scramble breaks out, which we try to prevent with the initial shocking strike but it still may, then we simply realign Strong Line to Weak Line, control the head, and execute the finisher. Follow with a takedown. The technique is the same, regardless of how the opponent reacts. Where the head goes the body follows. If the first strike to the face/spine doesn't stop him, we can always hit him again. And with him over our knee we can also be executing quick knee strikes to his groin or to the inside of the thighs to widen/destabilize his base.

I like this technique. In a close range grappling scenario it gives you counter hold options for both striking and grappling. I don't like the way it's performed in the initial video at the top of this thread, but that's why I don't teach it or perform it that way. We need to understand how hugs, holds, and takedowns not common to kenpo, but common to other styles like Western Wrestling, Greco-Roman, and BJJ, can be executed from this position. And that even if the attacker is a completely ignorant thug he may still attempt this style of attack. I saw plenty of drunks go chest to chest while working the door at a bar. It's primate thing. It's an attempt to establish dominance through physical posturing. They don't have to know karate to attack this way, their gorilla ancestors passed the knowledge down through their DNA.

I think the key to really understanding this technique is to realize that it's more of a grappling technique than a striking technique. We name it for the finishing move, but the head control and stance position are the parts that really matter. Once you control the opponent's Base and Centerline, you can finish him however you want.


-Rob

 

[ATACX GYM]

Bear Hug arms free:


Base out (drop to fighting stance)

Knee or kick to groin to loosen him up

Double palm heel strike to ears ("boxing" the ears) to further loosen him up--

--followed up with those hands ending in postion so that thumbs are each placed at corners of his eyes as you grasp head firmly:

gouge eyes with thumbs, simultaneously pullling his head backward (like a pez dispenser; then push head straight down; body will lead the way as he lets go

finish with combatives if needed; run

This tech seems oriented toward him facing you.How will you execute this from a lateral or rear grab?

What if the bear hug is followed immediately by a lift and slam? Can you use this very same tech as you wrote in this quote exactly or substantially this way on the ground?

What if he's armed? Will this exact tech work against an armed assailant?

What if there's more than one guy? Can you do this exact same tech as quoted vs multiple opponents?


I'm only asking because I'm curious.I mean no disrespect.My techs can be performed exactly as I show them in all of the above scenarios.

 

[MJS]

I've seen Greco wrestlers do the waist shot,I've seen catchwrestlers do it,I've seen Ungala ground fighters do it,I've seen it literally hundreds if not thousands of times on the streets.Almost NEVER was it merely a static clinch.Static clinches happened,but they're the exception...in my experience anyway.

When people tell me stuff like:"You won't run into a world class grappler on the streets in a street fight",I add to your reply.In addition to telling them that Idk WHO I may have to tangle with,I remind them that practically everyone in this nation has had experience with sports like football,horseplay wrestling,boxing (where the clinch happens alot),and some form of playful pushing.None of them will be threatening Dan Gable anytime ever,but they know enough to put you down if you let them.So I'd rather train to deal with the students of Dan Gable and Rhdi Ferguson (judo Olympian,Mundials silver medalist,rising MMA prospect),and people who have at least a college football player's knowledge of the tackle because if I can stop them? I can stop you too.And that's the majority of the people I'm likely to meet and might have some kind of encounter with.

Now I add gun work and multifights and knifework etc. to the mix just in case I'm facing or my students face or I/my students friends loved ones or just in the case of doing my regular daily thing I run into that too.The people who get shot stabbed mugged raped hit by cars and stuff like that? Betcha most of them had NO idea it was coming...and didn't train for it as result.That GUARANTEES that at some point they'd be victimized by these scenarios by someone looking to victimize them.

Better safe than sorry.Expect the unexpected.And allat jazz.


With respect,

THE ATACX GYM

Damn, has it been this long since I've replied to this thread? Sorry man, didn't mean to forget about ya.

So, back to the thread....yeah, I agree with you. This is why I like to crosstrain with grapplers. Its one thing to say that something will work, but I want to make sure it works. If another Kenpoist isn't giving you a realistic attack, IMO, its going to be pretty hard to know whether or not something will really work. If I can make the technique work against a wrestler or BJJ guy, it should work against the average joe that much easier.

MMA is huge in my area, as is in yours, I'm sure. I want to stand some sort of a chance. LOL

 

[MJS]

It's much easier for me to discuss conceptual or general notions in a forum like this. Much more difficult to put technical details about movement and technique application into the written word. I think a lot of people look at some of the threads here and say "good questions/topic, not sure how to type what I want to say, or not sure I have the time to do a "technical" discussion justice. Just my guess?

Sorry, didn't mean to neglect you either. LOL. No, you're right. This area has always been quiet, and many times, it is hard to come up with topics that generate alot of replies. It is hard to type what we're thinking and hope that the person reading is understanding what we're trying to get across. It be nice to have a huge Kenpo gathering somewhere, where we could train and share our ideas.

I really think what you are driving at is one of the "x factors" that great fighters have. That ability to adapt to a constantly changing circumstance. I have seen all too many martial artists get that look of horror when the technique they had such confidence in didn't work. That oh sh%t look. Nothing wrong with the technique, its just that the context changed too rapidly for them to execute. Many of the "defense against x-y-z" techniques we have in Kenpo require an immediate response to the initial attack to work. They are based on that immediate infliction of pain that disrupts the attack and allows for the completion of the technique. If that first 1/4 beat is missed, often times the technique goes to crap. That first disruption is harder to get against an experiences and committed attacker who is pressing the attack and not static. Just like with a defense against a bear hug or grab of any kind, get that first movement and strike off and disrupt the attackers height/depth/width so he can't pick you up or sink the grab or lock and you're good, hesitate, and you have to start adjusting and adapting, which means modify or drop the technique you originally went for.

I think this is an interesting idea for a couple of reasons. We know that action is always faster than reaction. While most legal implications and societal norms say otherwise, if you feel an altercation is eminent, the smartest thing to do first is a preemptive strike. If someone is pressing let your damn hands go. My Kenpo instructor always says something to the effect of "in a bar fight, the first punch was when he stood up from his stool." There are many physical, mental and emotional "first moves" that happen before a punch or tackle that let you know a fight is pretty much inevitable. So many "warrior arts" have techniques based on immediate action or at the very least immediate and definitive reaction. We teach these techniques to many, but what is very rarely taught or discussed is this notion of immediate and aggressive deployment of the technique to make it work.

Kenpo is not a passive art, used with hesitation, it is much much less effective.

This is why I personally dont like to be bound by the IP techniques, or worry about grafting from one to the next. If something goes wrong or not as we planned, just go with the flow and adapt accordingly.

Excellent point. I think it relates to what I said above, and to what Mr. Parker used to say "he who hesitates, mediates in horizontal position."

Again, the smartest and safest approach (speaking of winning a confrontation, not a legal battle) is to assume by default that whoever you do have to tangle with IS IN FACT highly trained and capable of great violence. As such, your first and immediate response should be your most brutal and violent.

Exactly! I'd rather assume the worst from the get go, and tone down accordingly.

You know, I have never been one for free advertising by wearing crap plastered with logos. I don't like to pay extra for name brands (unless its due to genuine increase in quality and functionality) and I don't feel the need to advertise to the general public what my favorite hobbies are. It is interesting though, watching all these guys try and wear their "toughness" on their sleeve with tap out shirts, affliction shorts etc. Someone gets in my face wearing that crap, their getting chopped in the neck extra hard, just in case they are a real fighter, and not a poser!

QFT!!!

 

[Inkspill]

I'd rather finger whip him in the eye with a small amount of force than chop him in the neck extra hard. sounds better if I might have to tell the cops "I don't know what happened, I kept telling the guy I didn't want to fight, and he went to swing at me and I put my hands up to protect myself"

 

[KENPOJOE]

Hi folks!
I was looking at this thread and thought I'd mention a few points:
1. It's taught against a "Front Bearhug,Arms free"
2.As Mr. Parker once stated "Boxing & wrestling are the western martial arts" so, as a amateur wrestler, why would I execute a front bearhug? Especially one with arms free? Many years ago, I asked Pro Wrestler Scott Steiner to detail out his preferences on performing a "Belly to belly suplex" if you are not familiar with Scott, his suplexes were and are a joy to behold!It is our intention to stop our attacking wrestler from executing said suplex upon us. Please look at what a person must do in order to execute a front suplex and you will see how we neutralize our opponent from performing that particular maneuver.
BTW, I have a video on youtube on the Tracy version of this given technique as well as the Parker version so please check it out! It's listed as "Front Bearhug:A version". Let me know what you think!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE