techinque over strength

[Doc]

A kung fu san soo master I studied with said the same thing. He's almost 72 now, and hasn't changed his ways.

Tell that to the old fart that thinks he can muscle and out strength train the young. When you get older, you're supposed to be smarter. Everyone didn't get the memo. I see them all the time with thumbs in the belt and hair dye on their mustache.

 

[kidswarrior]

Tell that to the old fart that thinks he can muscle and out strength train the young. When you get older, you're supposed to be smarter. Everyone didn't get the memo. I see them all the time with thumbs in the belt and hair dye on their mustache.

Wanted to say I don't get it, cos this is above my 'paygrade'...But alas, it's not. That same kfss guy I mentioned also says, I'm not going to box a 20 year old...I'm just gonna hurt him. So yeah, at this point, smarter, not harder.

 

[Danjo]

Age affects everyone, whether you like it or not, whether you want it to or not, no matter the resolve. To ignore facts, is folly and supremely stupid.

"Pride and ego are the anesthesia of ignorance." - Ed Parker

There's a scene from this 1970's cartoon called "Wizards" where this old wizard is about to have some "magic showdown" with this other one. Right at the beginning he says, "Here's a trick you haven't seen before" and whips out a Luger and blows the other one away. Funny as hell. Old age a treachery win again!

 

[jurat13]

Actually there have been a number of offensive lineman to play into their 40s. Bruce Matthews, and Lomas Brown immediately come to mind. Usually its the more skilled positions where you will see less older players.

But I will not argue over that as I see your point. In general, football is usually a young man's domain particularly at the skilled poistions that require more speed (CBs, WRs, RBs, etc).

In my experience, the older men that I have come into contact with seem to get even stronger as they age. Now sure, they probably can't lift the same amout of weights that they did when they were younger, but older men seem to have more of what I term "natural strength" developed from more isometric exercise.

In fact, I am 33, and if I stop lifting weights for a month then I will notice a difference in my strength as well.

In my opinion some people quickly dismiss strength as a weakness. Most of the examples of people discussing strength always seem to focus on the "brainless youngster" using strength in a reckless way.

But I believe just as there are examples of those using strength in a reckless way, there are also examples of those using strength in a efficient and effective way.

I personally value strength and technique equally.

I prefer to look at the glass as half full and follow the old adage; "You are only as old as you feel."

 

[Danjo]

Actually there have been a number of offensive lineman to play into their 40s. Bruce Matthews, and Lomas Brown immediately come to mind. Usually its the more skilled positions where you will see less older players.

True. Strength tends to be the last thing to go (reflexes being the first). It's why a George Forman can still knock people out in his late forties and the Ali's have retired long before.

However, there is still a difference between reflex based skills and strategy based skills. One good example is Archie Moore. One would hardly call him "fast" or "Quick" when he was fighting in his forties, he was just really smart as a fighter. He was the oldest Light-heavyweight champion and retired at the age of 50 after having fought Ali the previous year at 49.

But I think we need to not focus on the exceptions. Most people are not Randy Couture, Archie Moore, or George Foreman. They wouldn't be so notable if they were normal.

 

[KenpoDave]

If we are speaking of striking strength, it is primarily a result of proper end point timing. The more efficient and completely the body mass/weight is used, the more power/strength in the strike.

If, as one ages, he loses the ability to bench press 300 pounds, but maintains the ability to transfer his 220 pound body weight into a strike with correct timing and accuracy, then he is still a force to be reckoned with.

I have found, over the years, that my weight and strength tend to fluctuate depending on a variety of factors. But I continue to hit harder and harder, and my movements become smaller and smaller.

Must be technique, although, I will admit that having both is better.

 

[Andrew Green]

If we are speaking of striking strength, it is primarily a result of proper end point timing.

Partially, but strength always matters. There is a reason you see more KO's in heavier weight classes, even though you often see better technique in lighter ones.

 

[Flying Crane]

If we are speaking of striking strength, it is primarily a result of proper end point timing. The more efficient and completely the body mass/weight is used, the more power/strength in the strike.

Partially, but strength always matters. There is a reason you see more KO's in heavier weight classes, even though you often see better technique in lighter ones.

This is all true, but strength CAN get in the way.

As Dave says, the ability to efficiently bring the body mass into the deliverance of the strike will result in a much stronger strike without the need to have tremendous strength, and without needing to apply a huge muscular effort.

Someone with tremendous strength, who relies on it alone without efficient use of the full body (I am simply illustrating an extreme example, not saying that I believe people actually do this), can hit as strongly, but to do so he needs to be that much stronger, and he needs to put in the muscular effort. The thing is, most people just aren't that strong, so the strongmen are the exception who can get away with relying on strength.

But if you use proper techinque in bringing your body mass into play in the strike, it often works better if you are relaxed and make minimal muscular effort. In this case, if you try to "muscle" the punch thru at the same time, it can actually work against the technique. In effect, the act of making the tremendous muscular effort can sort of "separate" the arm and shoulder from the power potential of the full body torque. When that happens, you are back to simply relying on the muscular strength of the arm and shoulder, and you deprive yourself of the greater power of the full body.

This is not to imply that by being relaxed you need to turn into Gumby or something. Obviously you need to engage enough physical strength that the body and striking platform are stable. I'm just saying that if you get the technique right, it actually works better if you don't try to muscle thru at the same time, and you don't tire yourself out nearly so quickly.

 

[Danjo]

Strength mainly comes into play when all else is pretty much equal. When two opponents have pretty close to the same level of skill, endurance and ability to take a punch, then strength and size can make the difference. But like anything else, it can be nuetralized pretty well by someone with superior skill (witness Royce Gracie in the early UFCs).

 

[KenpoDave]

Partially, but strength always matters. There is a reason you see more KO's in heavier weight classes, even though you often see better technique in lighter ones.

Agreed. But often the deciding factor in the heavyweight division is the weight and correct technique. They are, after all, weight classes rather than strength classes.

In a discussion such as this, words like strength, weight, power, etc. often overlap. There is a big difference between the strength of the fighter and the strength of the fighter's punch (or kick, or whatever).

I recall, and please someone correct me if I am wrong, or fill in the gaps, that when Evander Holyfield faced Tyson the 2nd time, Holyfield devoted much of his time to changing his technique, not getting stronger.

 

[DavidCC]

There's a scene from this 1970's cartoon called "Wizards" where this old wizard is about to have some "magic showdown" with this other one. Right at the beginning he says, "Here's a trick you haven't seen before" and whips out a Luger and blows the other one away. Funny as hell. Old age a treachery win again!

loved that movie as a teenager.

the 2 wizards are brothers, and he says "here's a trick Mom never showed you"

And it's even more ironic because it's a conflict between magic and technology, and the brother on the side of magic and elves and fairies pulls out the gun...

 

[DavidCC]

In my experience, the older men that I have come into contact with seem to get even stronger as they age. Now sure, they probably can't lift the same amout of weights that they did when they were younger, but older men seem to have more of what I term "natural strength" developed from more isometric exercise.

Around our school I call that "Old Man Strength" and I refer to it when I beat up on the teenage athletes and wrestlers etc. I'm not _really_ stronger than they are, I'm just sneaky and know how to use what I've got...

 

[LawDog]

Strength is one of the main components of strong technique.
As Danjo stated, all things being equal strength can make the difference. Then why not have it on tap just in case?
I like to have as much working for me as I can. In a street type of confrontation to little usually won't cut it.
:boxing:

 

[sifubry]

My opinion on the subject was touched on a few times and expressed by LawDog. You need to know how to finesse the technique to make it work through leverage and control. Therefore you can perform it while tired, old, injured or other.

But you need strength because it adds the extra element to the application. Strength is not the key component but it is a necessary component and martial artists should do strength training.