Teaching

[kenpo tiger]

Thanks Mike. I also asked the question during my lesson tonight, and the explanation was that in kenpo a roundhouse kick can employ the ball of the foot as the striking surface. This obviously requires pinpoint accuracy, but I can see the benefit in executing the kick in that manner. KT

 

[Doc]

That's very interesting. Then, if a kick is 'an exaggerated step' - and please excuse my ignorance of Sub-Level 4 principles - then how would the roundhouse kick be executed? (BTW - I was taught that method in two separate arts, not kenpo, one of which is a hybrid karate based upon shotokan and the other taekwondo. I'm not saying it's right - it's what I was taught, as stated.) KT

It is not a SubLevel Four Kenpo principle, it is simple human anatomy. The definition comes from Ed parker Sr. The front kick is no different than a roundhouse. The only distinction is trajectory and the relationship between the femur and the hip joint. Other than that they are identical.

 

[Doc]

Just an observation, the only problems I have seen or heard of with the instep roundhouse kick was in the foot inself. Probably from kicking too many stacked/taped together boards or concrete. Some have had foot surgery for broken bones from that. (TKD)

I would also like to hear more details on how this could lead to hip problems. I've been doing hard roundkicks for 8 years and am 54 and frankly my hips feel better than when I started.

8 years of part time kicking is not very much. It is a long term issue of improper use that will catch up to those who move incorrectly. It took Chuck Norris and Bill Wallace much longer than that, but it did catch up with them. Some Korean stylists stop doing those kicks when they saw what happened to HapKiDo GM Sea Oh Choi after years of kicking that way. Gene and George Takahashi both Shotokan Masters, along with some very prominent Kenpo people all have had double hip replacement and now know better.

Also, I am quite comfortable kicking anywhere from chest to head level with a round kick, so am quite confused with your statement, Doc. Just wondered, since I don't know you, do you have a medical degree to base that statement on or can you substantiate that in any way? TW

I am definitely NOT an MD, but even if I were, without some expertise in martial arts kicking and an examination of the muscles and flexors involved over a period of time, I still wouldn't have any clue so degrees actually mean nothing. Therefore I cannot dirrect you to any doctor or study, nor would it matter if I gave you a laundry list of how the flexation of the foot significantly affects the hips when the leg is raised beyond the hip forcibly.

My personal background is in anatomical physics, but even that doesn't mean much when you consider any good coach without a degree can tell an athlete when they're doing something wrong. Just good hard information handed down from the experiences of many others and experience over many many years. There are reasons these kicks are only seen in sporting applications, and not real world use. These kicks do not exist in the original Chinese Arts, and neither does the knife edge side kick for a reason.

There is a well known Kenpo stylist whom I told years ago that the execution of a particular movement the way he preferred to do it, was tearing his shoulder apart. He told me it, "felt fine." This was almost twenty years ago. He's had four shoulder surgeries.

Simply, a kick is a walking type movement, and we don't walk on our shins or insteps. But if it "feels fine," keep doing it, but don't forget I shared.

 

[Doc]

Thanks Mike. I also asked the question during my lesson tonight, and the explanation was that in kenpo a roundhouse kick can employ the ball of the foot as the striking surface. This obviously requires pinpoint accuracy, but I can see the benefit in executing the kick in that manner. KT

I always thought everything required pinpoint accuracy for proper execution. You have kicks and strikes that don't? And it's not just Kenpo that kicks with the ball of the foot with a roundhouse. All the fighting arts do, and the sporting ars do not. Sometimes methodologies can lost, confused, or misunderstood and subsequently misapplied.

 

[MJS]

Well, regardless of what arts kick with it or not, the fact remains, that things are going to change when shoes are worn. Yeah, barefoot, its gonna be possible to pull the toes back, but wearing shoes, you're going to be kicking more with the toe area, which can lead to an injury. The shin provides a much harder and more powerful striking surface.

Mike

 

[Chicago Green Dragon]

I have been taught several things differently by different instructors. The best solution is for the student to perform the material the way the instructor standing in front of him tells him to perform it, and then analyze the situation later, with the same instructor, a different instructor, or on his own, and look for similarities and differences and see what can be learned from the experience.

I have seen this very situation give rise to all sorts of foolishness on the part of students and instructors alike. The instructor will sometimes get uppity and superior and tell the student "this is how it is and this is how its going to be," that accomplishes nothing positive. At the same time, I know students who simply refused to do as an instructor asked during a group class because, "that's not how Mr. X taught me to do it, so I just ignored the instructor." This is also silly because the instructor was put in his position for a reason, to ignore what he's trying to share with you because it's new or different is small minded and foolish, not to mention that it undermines his position and disrupts class, possible hindering other students from learning the lesson the instructor is trying to teach.

As an instructor, I tell my students, perform the material this way, if an instructor asks you to do it differently, before you tell him no find out why he thinks its a good idea. Then play with both ways later on. Worst case scenario, you'll find out which one works better for you, and learn a little more about why to do or not do certain things. Best case scenario, you learn two different ways to accomplish the same goal.

Instructors have to be willing to admit they don't have the monopoly on what is right and wrong, and they need to teach their students to be open to many different ideas and how to find the lessons contained within each. Students need to be willing to learn, really learn, and not just to parrot what Mr. X taught them.


-Rob

Very well put I agree with you. I too believe that when you are learning something from someone you should learn it the way they are teaching you at that time. Then later once you have it down pact you can look at modifying it and changing it.

But before going to anyone with something you have learned from them and modified it I would also see how they handle things like this with how they reacted when other people have come to them with the same situation. Some people can take it as constuctive critcism that can better the technique and others might take offense to it.

Chicago Green Dragon

:asian:

 

[The Kai]

It is not a SubLevel Four Kenpo principle, it is simple human anatomy. The definition comes from Ed parker Sr. The front kick is no different than a roundhouse. The only distinction is trajectory and the relationship between the femur and the hip joint. Other than that they are identical.

I was told that pullig the toes back help peotect the knee joint, especially on air kicks. Which due to suggestion of fact I can fell a difference in my knee when kicking with instep or ball of foot.
I guess I can see your point about walking aspects of the foot, but how would the foot position protect the hip. Please remember I am a layman
Thanks for your time
Todd

 

[MJS]

Actually, anytime you're just kicking or punching air, its important to not go full force, due to the fact that you're not hitting anything. Even hitting a target, proper form still needs to be used to prevent injury.

Mike

 

[TigerWoman]

Simply, a kick is a walking type movement, and we don't walk on our shins or insteps. But if it "feels fine," keep doing it, but don't forget I shared.

Thanks for the info, I respect your opinion and will keep it in mind. TW

 

[pete]

In my experience, when "instructors" spend a considerable amount of time speaking of endless variables and possibilities, they have very little real information to desseminate

yes, that would be counter-productive... however, training to internalize kenpo principles to take well prepared and effective action regardless of endless variable and possibilities is in my most humble opinion what kenpo is all about.

Tailoring is usually restricted to Physical Geometry Limitations inherent in the diversity of human anatomy. That is, if a person is too tall for you to reach the prescribed target, there is a tailored adjustment made, but the target change usually conforms to the same meridian for destructive effect, not personal preference. Motion-based-Kenpo Karate is 90% “Tailoring,” SubLevel Four is the opposite with a 90% structured curriculum because of body effective limitations

.
sounds like adjusting for available targets. in kenpo tiger's case, following through with the kick to the target as she was taught would not have worked in that given scenario. 3 choices: (1) get closer to the target (bad choice in this case, it would be forcing the technique and relinquishing positional advantage), (2) eliminate the kick (ok, maybe... depending on ability to exit), (3) change the target (best choice)... unfortunately, not knowlegeable enough, yet, regarding meridians and TCM to make that type of selection.

i know that i am not learning sub-level four, since doc is the only one who teaches it, but have never heard my kenpo referred to as "motion-based". is this a term for all "non-sl4", or specific style(s) of kenpo?

90% tailoring just sounds excessive...

In my view nothing is worse than a "teacher" who doesn't want to be a "teacher."

or a "student" that doesn't want to learn...

if you're serious about standardization...

that's a big "IF"

as always, doc, its a privledge to have your contributions to this board, and our collective development in the martial arts.

pete

 

[kenpo tiger]

I always thought everything required pinpoint accuracy for proper execution. You have kicks and strikes that don't? And it's not just Kenpo that kicks with the ball of the foot with a roundhouse. All the fighting arts do, and the sporting ars do not. Sometimes methodologies can lost, confused, or misunderstood and subsequently misapplied.

I have the feeling that that is the case here. I won't go into it again, but let's just say I am in kenpo because the two other arts I tried just didn't have what I was looking for - especially in the instructors, who seemed great when I first started in each. Live and learn. And -- thank you for your patience in explaining things. KT

 

[Doc]

I was told that pullig the toes back help peotect the knee joint, especially on air kicks. Which due to suggestion of fact I can fell a difference in my knee when kicking with instep or ball of foot.
I guess I can see your point about walking aspects of the foot, but how would the foot position protect the hip. Please remember I am a layman
Thanks for your time
Todd

Yes it does protect the knee as well. Simply, every part of the human machine is connected to every other part. If you move a finger it can make or break the overall structral integrity of the entire body. Therefore the overall posture must be positive for the action executed and these are well defined in human anatomy through competent teachers.

 

[Mekugi]

A "senior" will always be in a position to help/teach a "junior". I do believe that is the natural behavior in this setting. If you look at the Japanese word "sensei" it boils down to "one that has gone before you", more or less, implying that your seniors are your teachers as well.

Similarily, you will find your older students helping out the younger ones as a matter of habit. Regardless of whether you give a higher ranking student an entire class to run, the characteristics is learned through a underlaying pattern and will be present without interefence.

My nickle....

always

 

[Doc]

I have the feeling that that is the case here. I won't go into it again, but let's just say I am in kenpo because the two other arts I tried just didn't have what I was looking for - especially in the instructors, who seemed great when I first started in each. Live and learn. And -- thank you for your patience in explaining things. KT

My pleasure, and I do know what you mean.

And to clarify, most teachers are just "winging it" with no real education behind what they do other than what was taught to them. In most instances, its not their fault. They are simply regurgitating "bad information." Then there are the others .....

 

[Doc]

Well, regardless of what arts kick with it or not, the fact remains, that things are going to change when shoes are worn. Yeah, barefoot, its gonna be possible to pull the toes back, but wearing shoes, you're going to be kicking more with the toe area, which can lead to an injury. The shin provides a much harder and more powerful striking surface.

Mike

Perhaps you misunderstood. The roundhouse kick comes from the Chinese Arts who do not train barefoot. That is a product of the Okinawan/Japanese culture they inserted into their arts. The issue is the improper flexation of the ankle.

Your assertion with regard to shoes is a false one. If the shoes are soft enough, you can still flex the toes and kick with the ball of the foot. If they are not and are hard enough that you can't, than you kick with the toes supported by the shoes. No problem.

 

[MJS]

Perhaps you misunderstood. The roundhouse kick comes from the Chinese Arts who do not train barefoot. That is a product of the Okinawan/Japanese culture they inserted into their arts. The issue is the improper flexation of the ankle.

Thanks for the clarification.

Your assertion with regard to shoes is a false one. If the shoes are soft enough, you can still flex the toes and kick with the ball of the foot. If they are not and are hard enough that you can't, than you kick with the toes supported by the shoes. No problem.

And the key word there is if . Sneakers are alot softer than dress shoes, but you're still not going to get the same effect as if you were barefoot. Regardless, if I can kick someone in the chest with the shin and get results, why risk injuring my foot just to kick with the ball??

Again, it all comes down to personal preferrence. I prefer to kick with the shin.

Mike

 

[Doc]

A "senior" will always be in a position to help/teach a "junior". I do believe that is the natural behavior in this setting. If you look at the Japanese word "sensei" it boils down to "one that has gone before you", more or less, implying that your seniors are your teachers as well.

Similarily, you will find your older students helping out the younger ones as a matter of habit. Regardless of whether you give a higher ranking student an entire class to run, the characteristics is learned through a underlaying pattern and will be present without interefence.

My nickle....

always

A "Senior" may guide younger students in many ways, however if they are not assigned and/or certificated to teach the curriculum, it is forbidden and there are no exceptions regardless of rank, age, or tenure.

 

[Kalicombat]

In regards to the initial question:
Every school has a definitive curriculum as layed out by the head instructor, or association founder, president, etc... There is no room in a kenpo school for spacklings of information previously obtained from other association instructors. IF I had a school, and I am teaching the curriculum that my instructor taught me, then the instructors that I have empowered to lead classes will teach the information the way that I taught them.

My instructor has taught me the info as he sees fit, and out of respect to the privelage of wearing his association patch, I will teach the material likewise. When a person has absorbed the material, preferences and prejudices will ultimately be formed, but the standard curriculum is just that, a standard that all students must be graded by. I have heard people say things like, " I do it this way becuase it is more comfortable". That is like nails on a chalk board to me. Kenpo and life in general are not about comfort, it is about doing whatever is necessary to succeed.

I liken this to an engineering student deciding that they dont need to take all the math courses their career path deems necessary. Its not open for discussion. You chose to be an engineer, therefore, you must comply with the course requirements that millions of other engineers have deemed necessary to achieve the title of engineer. Or a nursing student that says they dont like blood so they choose not to learn to draw blood; not gonna work.

Gary C.

 

[kenpo tiger]

"A true Martial Artist is not one who fears change, but one who causes it to happen... While it is true that casting the old aside is not necessary in order to obtain something new, we should study old theories not as a means of discrediting them but to see if they can be modified to improve our present conditions... The humble man makes room for progress; the proud man believes he is already there." KT

 

[rmcrobertson]

Part of the difficulty of martial arts practice is that it is difficult to be sure that you've found a teacher worth trusting--and difficult to then go on and trust them.

What I mean by this is that martial arts schools aren't democracies in the sense that people sometimes think, which is that everybody's opinion is equally good. No, it isn't: everybody's opinion is to be equally valued as their opinion, which is another thing entirely.

To pick up from an example already given: if somebody thinks that "evolution isn't scientific," or that, "science doesn't prove that the earth goes around the sun," or that, "there's solid proof that we never landed on the moon," well, they're certainly entitled to those opinions. The problem is that they hadda go and drag science into it. Once you do that, well, opinions don't count any more. You're even entitled to claim that science is the wrong way to see reality--but the "game," of science has certain rules, and one of those rules is, you don't get to overlook facts you find embarassing.

This--sorry in advance--doesn't have anything to do with change, or keeping one's mind open. It has to do with understanding that there really are such things as people who know more than you do about certain subjects, and when you meet one, you'd best shut down your opinions if you want to learn the subject. Of course if you don't or the "teacher's," an idiot, that's another story. But once you're pretty sure that the martial arts teacher knows what they're doing--well, you need to shaddap and try to learn, because otherwise, why are you even a student?

In other words, don't keep your mind so open that your brain falls out. Don't collapse into blind obedience and repetition--but recognize that there are people who know more about what you're trying to learn than you do.

One other point is that good martial arts training involves dredging up a lotta crap from one's--well, let's just call it the unconscious. And some of that crap doesn't want to be dredged, some of it involves refusing to learn, and some of it gets blocked by parts of the mind that do not want to change. In other words, failing to open your heart and your mind, and failing to think about those voices that, "have a better way," than somebody with forty years or so in the art, is not so good.

Some of this is why Stanley Fish, the literary scholar and critic, recently wrote that beginning students should be told to leave their opinions at home. They should be trying to learn something better.

I realize that I make some of you guys cranky, perhaps with good reason. Again, apologies, if those help. But please try to understand that I am about the last person to argue for blindly following whatever you're shown.

By the way, I was taught to roundhouse with the instep first, partly to protect the delicate little tootsies. But I was also taught to, "chamber," the knee at first....and then, things developed. Go figure.