Targeting...

[Ma_Kuiwu]

First of all, I want to thank Datu Tim Harman and Guru Rich Parsons, along with all the rest who made my Marissa's benefit such a wonderful event!

That being said, I want to ask some questions now that I am hooked on Modern Arnis and what it has to offer.

I was doing the photo shoot for my upcoming Kungfu Qigong Magazine article, and I had my new arnis stuff with me. I have been practicing what I can lately, and have been attempting to contact GM Bong Jornales to find out about schedules and class costs. But I was showing some of my shixiongdi the few things I could from the clinic on the 6th. My sifu smiled and came over to see.

He picked up one of the sticks and said "You hit me". So I did. Or at least I tried. What ended up happening was I had some throbbing knuckles and I had to pick up my stick.

His premise is the same with any stick, long or short. It is the Taiji jian (strait sword), dao(broadsword), or even qiang (spear) technique he utilizes of targeting the fingers of the hand holding the incoming weapon. Thus eliminating the threat.

during my brief exposure to modern Arnis, I noticed many dagger attacks to the hands and wrists during the blocking exercises. But the sticks seemed to be blocking cane on cane. Is this always the case?

I do realize that there are issues involved with contol of the weapon, and that a strike too close to the hand can result in theattackers weapon continuing on its trajectory even after it has been "blocked" and thus striking with (somewhat diminished)force on the intended target.

You experts out there care to share some of your wisdom with me?

This is going in both the CHinese and Modern Arnis rooms. I am curious as to the differences.

Amitioufo

Kuiwu

 

[MJS]

The dagger attacks are not going to hurt nearly as much as the cane shots. Presas did at one time during his training do the shots to the head, but changed it so that all the blocks were done to the cane, to prevent injuries.

In my Arnis class, we will do the blocks to the cane, but also will do them slowly to the hands/arms to get the feeling of where they are supposed to be. We'll also take out some padded sticks and do the shots to the hands/arms. Its also great to do some sparring with the padded sticks. It definately opens your eyes as to what its going to be like to try and block someone swinging at you fast and hard.

Mike

 

[Cthulhu]

During practice, we hit mainly cane to cane, with the understanding that the hand is the actual target. From time to time, we'll work targetting drills with hocky gloves.

However, whether we block the stick or strike the hand would depend on the range of the engagement.

Cthulhu

 

[loki09789]

The basic concept level of stick work is to intercept the other players pattern in motion. So though targeting the body parts stops the fight faster than stick to stick blocking, in full speed motion if you intercept the pattern you may catch the hand, stick arm.... I suggets that you have someone slowly through a set pattern of attack such as figure 8's or something like it and respond with a slow response pattern like upward figure 8, single sinawali... and just see where the hits land. From there the logic of the application responses that you were shown will fit better.

Paul Martin

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Ma_Kuiwu
First of all, I want to thank Datu Tim Harman and Guru Rich Parsons, along with all the rest who made my Marissa's benefit such a wonderful event!

That being said, I want to ask some questions now that I am hooked on Modern Arnis and what it has to offer.

I was doing the photo shoot for my upcoming Kungfu Qigong Magazine article, and I had my new arnis stuff with me. I have been practicing what I can lately, and have been attempting to contact GM Bong Jornales to find out about schedules and class costs. But I was showing some of my shixiongdi the few things I could from the clinic on the 6th. My sifu smiled and came over to see.

He picked up one of the sticks and said "You hit me". So I did. Or at least I tried. What ended up happening was I had some throbbing knuckles and I had to pick up my stick.

His premise is the same with any stick, long or short. It is the Taiji jian (strait sword), dao(broadsword), or even qiang (spear) technique he utilizes of targeting the fingers of the hand holding the incoming weapon. Thus eliminating the threat.

during my brief exposure to modern Arnis, I noticed many dagger attacks to the hands and wrists during the blocking exercises. But the sticks seemed to be blocking cane on cane. Is this always the case?

I do realize that there are issues involved with contol of the weapon, and that a strike too close to the hand can result in theattackers weapon continuing on its trajectory even after it has been "blocked" and thus striking with (somewhat diminished)force on the intended target.

You experts out there care to share some of your wisdom with me?

This is going in both the CHinese and Modern Arnis rooms. I am curious as to the differences.

Amitioufo

Kuiwu

Please tell your Sifu with respect. Good Idea.

Many of the styles target only actual area and if you get hit then you did not block properly or you did not counter in time.

Now part of the Modern in Modern Arnis is the idea of targeting the canes with the understanding that with the basic 12 angles of attack are applies to target areas on the body. This Cane to cane allows for people to practice the weapons without immediatly getting hurt and not wantig to learn or train any more.

Now let me say, if , for some reason, I am lucky or skilled enough to counter the strike by pulling my strike just a little to avoid getting hit in the hand and blocking, or to counter the technique.

Let me ask, do you start training with empty hands by striking the opponents face and body immediatly, or do you learn techniques and then try to apply them in practice with a partner.

So take the mentality from your current instuctor of making teh attack real, and the techniques you learn from other people as well, and put it all into your own system. Just work well with others

The best way to learn, is one on one with a good instructor.

If I was to spend every minute fo the seminar getting you to hold the cane properly and to get your weight 100% correct, etc, ..., . then most people will not be happy with the training. The idea of this and other seminars was to have fun and to learn somethings of interest and maybe generate interest in the art.

Now, make sure you let your insturctor know you are not going to quit training in his and your art.

:asian:

 

[Ma_Kuiwu]

Ah, I have no intention of quitting Sfu Li's art. It was an interesting way he dealt with a stick attack, his style is in everything he does from his walk to the way he gestures with his hands when he talks.

I am seriously interested in pursuing Modern Arnis, tho to date my attempts to reach GM Bong have been unsuccessful. Perhaps he is out of town?

You made a belieer out of me sir!

But I am a slow learner, and I ask many stupid questions along the way!

My thoughts were that the cane was used as a substitute for an edged weapon. My sifus counter to my strike was no different than that of a jian blocking an attack, in which case my fingers would have been lying on the ground along with my stick. SOunds like the same result to me.

Fascinating stuff.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Ma_Kuiwu

But I am a slow learner, and I ask many stupid questions along the way!

No question is stupid and you should never be afraid to ask. After all, thats the way we learn, is by asking questions.

My thoughts were that the cane was used as a substitute for an edged weapon. My sifus counter to my strike was no different than that of a jian blocking an attack, in which case my fingers would have been lying on the ground along with my stick. SOunds like the same result to me.

Your thoughts were correct! The stick and the knife can all be translated to the same thing. Even the empty hand disarms are a translation of using the stick.


Mike

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by MJS
No question is stupid and you should never be afraid to ask. After all, thats the way we learn, is by asking questions.



Your thoughts were correct! The stick and the knife can all be translated to the same thing. Even the empty hand disarms are a translation of using the stick.


Mike

Yes, always ask the questions.

And the blade and empty hand are translations of the stick work and the same the other way around.

The Michgan Camp of the WMAA is coming up here in November, and the IMAF Schea group hes theri summer Camp in Lansing Michigan, and last year they had a camp up in Midland/Bay City area in January.


Yet, GM Bong Jounalis is in your neighborhood.

Remember ask away

 

[Ma_Kuiwu]

Why is the sky blue?
Why is the grass green?
Why do farts stink?
Why dont we all just get along?
Why does Guru Parsons Drive a Pontiac and not a Chevrolet?
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl::rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

 

[Ma_Kuiwu]

most of all, why does the "roll on floor laugh out loud" smiley icon look like its jerk*ng itself off?
Or am I the only loser who thought that?

 

[Ma_Kuiwu]

Thank you for your responses.
Several things have happened with this experience.

1. I saw my kungfu as a style that has the ability to defend itself sucessfully against other traditions without compromising its integrity.

2. I have found that Modern Arnis is something that I would really like to investigate further.

3. Rich can drive anything that he wants to.

I have heard from GM Jornales. And as soon as I can scrape together enough to get started, I will drop by and start to play with his class. Most likely until I have the time and money to devote myself more fully I will be switching between Arnis and Kung Fu month by month. Tang Soo Do I can work on my own to the point I need to test. So I dont have to give anything up until my grades slip!

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by Ma_Kuiwu
most of all, why does the "roll on floor laugh out loud" smiley icon look like its jerk*ng itself off?
Or am I the only loser who thought that?

LOL..never thought of it that way!:rofl: (blanking myself off)

 

[Cruentus]

Good questions. Your instructor brings up some good ideas which Modern Arnis does address. We have different methods of "blocking" the cane. I posted this on a different thread:

I would say it depends on who your fighting. Certian "blocks" are not advantagous to use when fighting an eskrimador, but may work well in other situations.

Example: Brace block. The brace is a good block if your opponent has a larger/heavier weapon. Remy taught it because he was teaching self defense, and the brace is a good self defense tool. If someone attacks with a bat, or a shovel, you can be preped with the brace. However, the brace is not a strike. Also, the brace is not advantagious to use in stick dueling, or Tapi-Tapi. If someone uses a brace and I have a cane, I know that they have committed to that block. Once I know that they are commited, it becomes very easy for me abort my original strike and strike elsewhere before they can move.

Another Example: Umbrella block. Umbrella block is also a good block for certain circumstances, particularly if the tools are blades. If you both have bolo's, or espada Y Daga, the Umbrella block is a good way to handle an overhead strike. I would argue, however, that in Tapi-Tapi this block is not effective against an eskrimador. You will find yourself trapped, or eating your own cane. Now the arguement can be made that this could be useful in Largo Mano; I say that it is only less dangerous in largo mano, however less dangerous doesn't mean advantagious. Advantagious it is not.

Here are some other types of blocks that I might as well address:

1. "The Strike": This is what Tim K. was talking about, I think. In seminars Remy taught that the most ideal block for self defence was not to block at all, but just to strike the wrist/hand of the attacking arm. I would have to agree that this is most ideal for self defence. I would have to say that in Tapi-Tapi or stick dueling, you can't always hit the limb against a good eskrimador. Against a good eskrimador who is striking properly (as I previously explained), the limb is not as accessable to a grab, or strike. By the time you try to grab or stike the limb, you will be hit already because you would have been forced to telegraph your movements. Also, if you always go for a limb shot as your block all the time, it will be very easy for an eskrimador to use this against you, baiting you to attack the limb so he can counter you somewhere else. So strike the attacking limb if you can, but remember that you can't always strike the limb; you have to be careful with this one.

2. " 'X' Block": This is "the mistake", as I call it. I feel that the X Block is widely misused. Most people do this, but I feel that it is incorrect. An X Block is meeting the other persons cane, force to force, with your cane, thus making an "X". I believe that this started when Remy, and others, told us that striking the limb was ideal, but that for practice we could strike the cane. Now people block by striking the cane force to force, making this X, forgeting that this was supposed to emulate a limb strike. The X block will work against the regular Joe, but against an eskrimador an X block will get your cane grabbed or disarmed. Plus, by meeting force to force with their cane, you are expecting impact. An eskrimador can bait you with this by aborting the initial strike, allowing you to overextend because you expected impact, giving him the opportuntity to hit you elsewhere.

3. "90 degree block" This is taught in Balintawak. Remy did this to a degree, but didn't really explain it. Basically, you block with your stick stright up in the air, creating a 90 degree angle at the wrist. your wrist and shoulder is tightened in such a manner that you can withstand the force of a strike. You add this with a downward motion when you meet the other persons cane. This block is better demonstrated then explained over the internet. This one is probably the most advantagious against an eskrimador because it eliminates the problems created by the other kinds of blocks, and once learned it is the easiest to execute in that it takes the least amount of movement and effort. By being able to block successfully with minimal effort and movement, you become less suseptable to a fake or a stick grab/disarm.

Maybe that explains a little about our blocking methods. The point is, getting smacked in the wrist or hand is a major factor that needs to be covered in any weapons system. In Filipino Martial Arts we have our own way of dealing with this. We often block by actually hitting the limb, and we also learn how to defend when our opponent attempts to hit our limb.

Like any Martial Art, Modern Arnis is very involved, and you'll discover more as you learn the system. MartialTalk is a good resource also, and there are many knowledgable people on this board. If you do a "search" on Modern Arnis or FMA forum, and type in "Blocks" you will come up with a variety of threads where this subject was covered. There is a wealth of info there that could fill a small book. So, have fun w/ that!

It was good partnering w/ you at the seminar. I hope to see you again. Also, definatily seek out Bong Journalas; I have heard nothing but good things about him.

:asian:

 

[Pat]

OK, if this isn't a stupid question, it at best shows my lack of knowledge.

What is the difference between a Modern Arnis practitioner and an Escrimador?

:drinkbeer

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by Pat
OK, if this isn't a stupid question, it at best shows my lack of knowledge.

What is the difference between a Modern Arnis practitioner and an Escrimador?

:drinkbeer

This has come up before; no it's not a stupid ?? at all!

I use the term "eskrimador" to imply someone who is very skilled with a stick, just out of habit. "Arnisador," "Kalisador," or whatever other name you can think of could also be used.

So basically certian techniques work better on your average Joe then on someone who is trained well with the stick.

It is important to note here that Modern Arnis was designed for self defense, not just "stick dueling." So not all Modern Arnis practitioners are "eskrimadors" (going with my little definition of the word) though many are. Often times Modern Arnis people can be more well rounded then someone who focuses mostly on 1 weapon (cane, knife, etc.). It all depends on "who" that Modern Arnis person is.

 

[arnisador]

Yes, Mr. Jornales is great!

He emphasizes double stick and other weapons more than Modern Arnis.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Ma_Kuiwu
Why is the sky blue?

The sky is Blue because of the Refraction of Light through teh Ozone.

Originally posted by Ma_Kuiwu
Why is the grass green?

The Grass is Green because of the Chlorophile in the plant.

Originally posted by Ma_Kuiwu
Why do farts stink?

Methane and sometmes Sulfur

Originally posted by Ma_Kuiwu
Why dont we all just get along?

We do not get along because we disagree

Originally posted by Ma_Kuiwu
Why does Guru Parsons Drive a Pontiac and not a Chevrolet?

I drive a Pontiac Firebird because I do not like the Checvrolet Camaro