Target focused close range shooting.

[SFC JeffJ]

From the day I started combat style handgun shooting, use of the front site was drilled into me. Thousands of rounds in civilian shooting and many more once I was in the Army put focus on the front site securely, I thought, in my mind and body. However, when I was actually in close combat (25 meters and less), my focus was almost entirely on the target. Everything else was as I trained. My stance wasn't perfect of course, but it was roughly there. Two handed grip with the pistol brought up to eye level. But no focus on the front site. Fortunately, it worked. Gave me a lot of food for thought. Before I was in the army, I wen't to M. Ayoobs LFI. While I was in the army I went to Thunder Ranch. Both of them are strong proponents of always sighted fire. Now I'm not saying that what I did was better, just that's what ended up working for me in spite of previous training and practice.

What are your thoughts on the matter?

Jeff

 

[KenpoTex]

This is another one of those "great debates"

I would say that at close range I tend to be much more target focused. If I have the time I like to at least put the front sight on target. Otherwise, I tend to just bring the gun up to eye level so that the slide/barrel is in my line of sight. I've found that this works pretty well for me both one-handed and two-handed.

Rapid target aquisition was the reason I switched from Weaver to Isoceles. I feel that Iso. makes rapid "unaimed" shooting more intuitive since the weapon is usually directly on the centerline due to the symetrical position of the arms.

just my $0.02

 

[SFC JeffJ]

Yeah, I realize it's another "Great Debate". That's why I tried to be very clear that I wasn't prejudiced against always aimed fire. Heck, for years I was one of the people saying ALWAYS use your sights.

Now this might have changed since I got out, but even the US Army has been teaching a sort of "point shooting" (still hate that term). Not with pistols though. They teach/taught a method of close combat shooting for the standard service rifle called "Gun to Eyeballs". I found it good up to about 30 meters. Anyone know if that is still trained?

Oh, and I switched to primarily isocoles as well back when I was shooting ISPC limited. You are right, better alingment and much quicker target transitions. All the grips/stances have thier plusses and minuses though.

Well, I've rambled on long enough,

Jeff

 

[bydand]

I was also firmly in the "Always use your sights" camp until a real eye-opening outing a couple of years ago. My dear Mother, having raised 3 boys, and Dad being an outdoor type from birth I think, has always been one to go out and shoot, snowshoe, dirtbike, whatever with us. I was out with the Parents showing them where I found a great trout stream and had a new rifle with me. Dad took a few cracks with it and then it was Mom's turn. I had grown up watching her shoot everything so didn't think twice when I handed it over. Needless to say she smoked Dad's shooting and when she handed it back asked a question that floored me. "What is that hoop thingy on top of your gun?" Hoop thingy???? She was refering to my peep sight. Never seen one before, but she nailed everything out to 75 -80 yards. Turns out, nobody ever taught her how to use sights of ANY type, she just shrugged her shoulders and said all you had to do was point it where you wanted to hit, just like pointing your finger. The whole "Always use your sights" took a BIG-BIG hit in my book that day.

No I still can't hit the broad side of a barn without sights, but I no longer doubt people who say they don't ever use them. I guess it is just a matter of how you are taught.

 

[arnisandyz]

I'm target focused out to 20 feet. Just point and shoot, no sights. Hate to keep bringing it up, but Brian Enos calls this "type 1 focus" I believe he named 4 major ranges of foci(?) and mentioned that in any string of fire your focus might change - and/or you might be using multiple types of foci while you're shooting. People that drill FRONT SIGHT, FRONT SIGHT are only working one particular range and trying to make it fit in ranges where other focus types might be better.

Point shooting is like throwing a baseball. With practice your body gets the ball to where your looking at.

Shooting is like an analog slide with accuracy on one end and speed on the other. With the close range target focus your sliding the lever all the way over to speed, because you don't need pinpoint accuracy at close range, just enough to hit what you want to hit. Of course the REAL good shooters seem to have 2 slides (one for accuracy and one for speed) turned all the way up!!! The journey continues.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

I'm target focused out to 20 feet. Just point and shoot, no sights. Hate to keep bringing it up, but Brian Enos calls this "type 1 focus" I believe he named 4 major ranges of foci(?) and mentioned that in any string of fire your focus might change - and/or you might be using multiple types of foci while you're shooting. People that drill FRONT SIGHT, FRONT SIGHT are only working one particular range and trying to make it fit in ranges where other focus types might be better.

Point shooting is like throwing a baseball. With practice your body gets the ball to where your looking at.

Shooting is like an analog slide with accuracy on one end and speed on the other. With the close range target focus your sliding the lever all the way over to speed, because you don't need pinpoint accuracy at close range, just enough to hit what you want to hit. Of course the REAL good shooters seem to have 2 slides (one for accuracy and one for speed) turned all the way up!!! The journey continues.

Makes sense to me. And hey, if it's a good reference, I don't care if you keep bringing Enos up. I should have that book within a couple of days.

Jeff

 

[arnisandyz]

You'll love that book. It hasn't necessarily answered all my questions, but led me to question and explore my own shooting. The "book" known as the bible of practical shooting. Its a little dated, but Enos was ahead of the times so the material is still very much rellivant,

 

[Cruentus]

My shooting comes from more of an Applegate methodology rather then a Cooper one. I see the use for both sited fire as well as target focused shooting. But I will say that under 50 feet or so, I don't need sites to hit a man sized target. Ask yourself, where is the fight most likely to occur?

The reality is, it is most likely that under combat stress you won't be able to see both your sites AND the target without distance, time, and cover. You can't fight your physiology, and if it has to pick one, your body will naturally want to focus on the target rather then your sites.

So, ask yourself: do you want to train like your most likely going to fight, or do you want to train for what will get you the best score in competitions or qualifications, or for some other purpose?

I guess it is up to you; it is your life that hangs in the balance.

Good luck...

Paul

 

[AzQkr]

Hi,

Just joined this forum today as I was sent a link to this thread. I put up an intro as well as a course I'm holding in Knoxville in October where the skills being dicsussed here and more will be passed to students.

I run my own web forum at this address: http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/index.php where we discuss everything threat focused which includes Quick Kill, Quick Fire, ww2 FAS, and other systems of "instinct Shooting" in this regard.

If you'll go to the announcement of the course in Oct in Knoxville, Tenn. there are several links to the students reviews of the materials we train others in around the country.

If I can be of any help in this subject, please do not hesitate to contact me here or through email.

Brownie

 

[Cruentus]

Brownie,

Glad to have you on the forum. I will check yours out when I have time; been too busy for forums lately which is a good thing, actually.

You probably don't know me, but I remember some very informative posts by you years ago on bladeforums that were helpful to me. We also have a mutual friend (Chris Fisk up in Michigan ring a bell?).

And for those of you who don't know, Mr. Brownie is a former military professional and currently a prominant firearms and knife instructor who is known as a proponent of the old military quick kill methods, and has a knife opening technique that has become an industry standard in many training circles. [hope that intro was both accurate and o.k..... ]

Anyhow, please elaborate for the good people here on your quick kill methodology when you have time. I have read a military manual on the subject and am familiar with the method at least academically, but I wouldn't consider myself one who could elaborate expertly on the subject like you could, considering you teach the method. We do target focused shooting, but it is not the same as the quick kill method.

So, feel free to elaborate on both the rifle and pistol quick kill method that you teach; I am sure many here would appreciate it.

Thanks again....and again welcome to MT!



Paul Janulis

 

[AzQkr]

Paul,

I certainly do know Chris, in fact he may be either making a trip to Tenn with Sastre in Oct for the class there or looking into bringing the course to his area in the future. He was going to make the spring event in Tenn with Mike but something came up at the last and didn't make it. Sastre was there though, and will be videotaping this one in Oct as far as I know.

Threat focused skills in the courses we offer cover the ww2 Fairbairn/Sykes/Applegate methods as welll as Quick Fire [ from the US Army in the 80's ] as well as Quick Kill [ QK ] which I was trained in by the originator of the technique called "Instinct Shooting" which the US Army adopted back in the mid 60's and named QK. We also train in moving [ sprinting ] and shooting out of the kill zone was some unique to our courses drills we developed, both one and two handed.

I still train some in the blades, and still get people asking for the opening method from other forums when they read the archived materials there ocassionally. I'm glad to hear that some of the information I put forth back then helped you some way in your own endeavors.

Thanks for the welcome, I look forward to speaking with you in the future here and elsewhere. Tell Chris I said hello and look forward to hooking up with him in the future.

Brownie

 

[Cruentus]

I will tell Chris hello; he mentioned something about you comming here in the future. Sounds like a good time.

Besides my own company, I am fairly active on staff with livesafeacademy (http://www.livesafeacademy.com/); we frequently host seminars with accomplished instructors of WWII methodology; so I am a proponent of many of these methods and supportive of what you do.

If you are able to come to Michigan I am sure we can show you some good great lakes hospitality; I'll keep my ears to the ground.

Take care,

Paul

 

[KenpoTex]

hello Sir, welcome to the forum. Unless I'm mistaken you're also a member at Combat Carry (as am I) ?

Good to see you here.

 

[AzQkr]

kenpotex;

I knew I recognized your handle from that forum as well.

Thanks for the welcome, good to see you here as well.

Brownie