Tang Soo Do's Jujutsu Connection

[Makalakumu]

In another thread, I was asked about a jujutsu connection to Tang Soo Do, and I speculated the following. I felt that this subject may be worth it's own thread!

Patrick McCarthy writes in his translation of the Bubishi, "Receiving his menkyo (teaching certificate) in Jigen-ryu ken-jutsu from Ijuin Yashichiro, Matsumura was responsible for synthesizing the unique teaching principles of Jige-ryu to the Chinese and native Okinawan fighting traditions he had also studied. By doing so, Matsumura established the cornerstone upon which an eclectic self defense tradition surfaced in and around the castle district, which in 1927 became known as Shuri-te (Shuri hand)." Page 84.

McCarthy goes on to add that all of his disciples were trained in this tradition, including Funakoshi Gichin and his teachers. When Mr. McCarthy interviewed the eleventh generation Jigen-ryu headmaster of the time, he is reported to have said, "there can be no question that Jigenryu is connected to Okinawa's domestic fighting traditions; however, the question remains, which influenced which!"

The research from a book is the easy part. The real meat of your question is much more difficult to answer. In all honestly, I can only guess at a connection between specific kata and techniques. In my lineage, Hwang Kee learned the kata from books and from students associated with the Chung Do Kwan. I have seen no direct evidence that any of the applications were taught with the kata, so I have no way exploring the historicity of certain moves through that avenue.

However, if I were to make an educated guess, a guess that I have vetted with a sensei in jujutsu and aikijutsu, our version of Chinto kata has exactly the move we are discussing. Near the end of the kata, there is a grabbing motion and a 360 degree turn followed by a simultaneous knife hand strike and kick. This technique is similar to technique called shihonage, which is a common technique in aikijutsu and jujutsu styles. The knife hand strike simulates the strike to the unprotected part of the neck and the kick could be deleted entirely or inserted in many places during the application sequence.

At this time, I am unable to determine if this is an actual Jigen Ryu technique. I suspect that it is and other people who have more experience then me, expect that it is as well. Since Chinto is one of the forms handed down to our style by Matsumura, there is a chance that this technique could be a remnant of that style.

Thoughts?

 

[Makalakumu]

I was thinking about this thread and thought about some examples from some hyung that we practice.

The first example is from Bassai Dai. It shows tai o toshi and could easily be followed up with a dagger strike to finish the opponent off.

The second example is from Bassai Sho. It shows a joint lock and leg wrapping technique that is taught in many jujutsu systems. This is the best example of it, but I think it gets across the principle.

The third example is from Naihanchi Sho Dan. It shows a thrust block, footwork to move behind, and a choke.

Anyway, I think these examples show more the connection that I was talking about.

 

[DMcHenry]

It would help if you had a small clip of the moves fromt he form you are referring to. I don't do Bassai Sho, but do work with the others and I don't see it.

Thanks

 

[Makalakumu]

Here's the Bassai Sho that I practice. The rest of the hyung are pretty standard TSD fare.

 

[dancingalone]

Just drumming up some TSD conversation and thought this thread deserved more discussion. Does anyone think the change to low section knifehand blocks/strikes in Pyung Ahn Chodan instead of mid section had anything to do with jujutsu applications? (I don't, but a discussion of the practical application differences might be fun.)

 

[DMcHenry]

I don't know if it had anything to do with it, but one of the last seminars I taught I did it on the pairs of low knife-hand-blocks like found on the end of Pyung-ahn Cho-dan. I taught them as arm bar/elbow lock, so that could fit into that theory.

The more I've cross-trained in HapKiDo, the more I kept seeing those types of techniques in our TangSooDo.

 

[Makalakumu]

I can see application there for hip throws and some hip throw counters. The hand position is where you would grab another person.

 

[dancingalone]

I don't know if it had anything to do with it, but one of the last seminars I taught I did it on the pairs of low knife-hand-blocks like found on the end of Pyung-ahn Cho-dan. I taught them as arm bar/elbow lock, so that could fit into that theory.

Agreed. Ikkyu is a fairly obvious and sensible interpretation as is kote gaeshi.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Kid's are back in school! Yay!!!

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Sorry wrong thread!!! Carry on!

 

[kitkatninja]

The only thing that I can add to this is to take a look at Iain Abernethy's youtube channel practicalkatabunkai

This is very similar to what we're taught in our TSD class when it comes to form applications, I do believe that there is some sort of connection with jujutsu - however I also believe that it is very dependant on the individual school/association on whether or not they teach it, eg the more sport orientated one may only concentrate on the striking aspects (and there's nothing wrong with that).