Tang Soo Do and Tae Kwon Do
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What info. are you looking for Poomse, kicks , punches, history give us a starting point
Danny Reid
White Belt
There's an old joke: what's the difference between Tae Kwon Do and Tang Soo Do? About five letters.
To the casual observer, the two arts are very similar.
However, TSD does not emphasize kicking and jumping to the degree that TKD does...although TSD does employ a lot of kicking.
TSD also uses some circular techniques which you don't encounter as much in TKD
While the forms ( hyungs) are different, a student from either system would most likely recognize a lot of the elements in their own system
I have always regarded TKD as a kind of more hyper version of TSD
The two systems are not interchangeable, but have far more similarities than they do differences.
To the casual observer, the two arts are very similar.
However, TSD does not emphasize kicking and jumping to the degree that TKD does...although TSD does employ a lot of kicking.
TSD also uses some circular techniques which you don't encounter as much in TKD
While the forms ( hyungs) are different, a student from either system would most likely recognize a lot of the elements in their own system
I have always regarded TKD as a kind of more hyper version of TSD
The two systems are not interchangeable, but have far more similarities than they do differences.
Danny Reid
White Belt
Left out a couple things...
TSD as a general rule is taught in a more traditional approach than TKD is
Also, TKD is also more competition oriented than TSD...although there are some TKD schools which are more traditional and less competition oriented than other TKD schools.
TSD as a general rule is taught in a more traditional approach than TKD is
Also, TKD is also more competition oriented than TSD...although there are some TKD schools which are more traditional and less competition oriented than other TKD schools.
karatekid1975
Master Black Belt
I went from TSD to TKD. To me, although the forms are different, they are similar in many ways. Like most of the kicks, punches, blocks, ect are the same. The only differences I've seen (other than the forms) are: there is no walking stance in TSD, but there is in TKD. TSD has the same stances but they employ lower stances than TKD. TKD employs more kicking and less punching than TSD. The TSD dojang that I attended was more traditional. Not that the TKD dojang isn't, but they push comps more and they have different sparring rules than TSD.
This is just from my experience with the two dojangs I attended.
This is just from my experience with the two dojangs I attended.
This may be a slight topic shift but, I think that Soo Bahk Do is becoming quite different from TKD. The Chil Sung and Yuk Ro forms are quite distinct. Plus, there are a whole new set of basics that is starting to move down the pipe. My guess is that the Ill Soo Shik and Ho Sin Shul are going to change next.
This would make the art quite distinct from TKD.
This would make the art quite distinct from TKD.
JT_the_Ninja
Black Belt
I've always heard it put like this: Tang Soo Do is a martial art, while Tae Kwon Do is a sport.
TSD is, at least in ITF schools, a traditional art, where the focus is becoming a better person through training and learning to control the body. It's also more focused on self-defense. The name "Tang Soo Do" can be translated (among other ways) as "Way of the Defense-Strike," because the philosophy is that even in defending you make sure your opponent feels pain.
TKD, which I've only seen (I have a few friends that used to study it), is rather unlike that. It's a competition art, good for competing and being flashy. While I respect that people who take TKD are serious about it, I think I still prefer the more traditional one.
Peace,
JT
TSD is, at least in ITF schools, a traditional art, where the focus is becoming a better person through training and learning to control the body. It's also more focused on self-defense. The name "Tang Soo Do" can be translated (among other ways) as "Way of the Defense-Strike," because the philosophy is that even in defending you make sure your opponent feels pain.
TKD, which I've only seen (I have a few friends that used to study it), is rather unlike that. It's a competition art, good for competing and being flashy. While I respect that people who take TKD are serious about it, I think I still prefer the more traditional one.
Peace,
JT
In that case, JT, you've seen a very limited picture of TKD. The TKD I train is close-in punches, locks and flowing strikes, with basic kicks aimed low to damage joints and liberal use of elbow stikes to the face, locks and throws to set up hard knife-hand strike to the throat and so on—about 75% hand tech, with foot and leg techs (oh yes, we train knee strikes to the groin and abdomen)—and this is about as traditional as you can get: it's part of the toolkit of Song Moo Kwan TKD, one of the very early kwans. And we don't train for WTF sparring at all; we train to finish off a typically untrained, violent attacker using most-likely instinctive aggressive moves. And there are a fair number of people whose TKD is like that, at least in these parts.
JT_the_Ninja
Black Belt
Glad to hear that. I will admit that the other large part of my knowledge of TKD comes from video games (Hwoarang and Baek Doo San from Tekken, e.g.)
One of my friends showed me one of his basic forms a while ago...does SMK TKD have that "walking" stance? I thought that was a bit odd.
I can't speak for other SMK dojangs—don't know to what degree theyve made a separate peace, so to speak with the Kukkiwon/WTF—but in our school, no: the hyungs are done in low stances, in a way which is very reminiscent of the most traditional Shotokan styles. That walking stance you're talking about was introduced along with a set of forms, the Taegeuks, which came in in the early 1970s, replacing an earlier and more classical set, the Palgwes—themselves replacements for the Pinan/Heian katas that in the early kwan days were part of the regular KMA curriculum. The Shotokan version of these kata, the Heians, uses a low stance—noticeably lower, I've been told, than in the original Okinawan performances, and the Palgwes inherited that low stance. The Taegeuk series was designed to be much less evocative of the Japanese forms than the Palgwes were, and probably also to support the higher stances that the WTF competitive sparring style encouraged.
In my dojang, we don't do the Taegeuks at all, so we don't do those stances. My instructor's view of the Taegeuk-style walking stance is similar to yours, but stronger: he can't abide the walking stances.
Much of TKD as a very hard combat system has become diluted in various dojangs, because of Olympic-style tournament scoring practice—that's where the `flash' reputation comes from. But there are schools that teach it as a CQ street combat system. Remember also that this is the same story with karate: a lot of fancy, flashy combat-ineffective or risky moves have come into Shotokan training in certain quarter, and into other styles through sport karate—if you watch a TKD competitive sparrer and a sport karate exponent in the ring, you may have a hard time in places telling which of them is which. It's a problem with traditional striking arts which become ring contest sports. And just as there is a `traditional karate' movement afoot to try to restore the strictly combat basis of karate, I see a trend in that same direction these days with TKD. But some schools never abandoned the kwan-style understanding of TKD as a harsh, effective street combat art...
JT_the_Ninja
Black Belt
Well that puts things in a new light.
I'll admit to attempting some of the flashy moves, just for the heck of it, but in a fight I'm glad I have TSD training so I know how to block, respond, and keep myself alive as best I can.
I'm willing to bet that the set of schools who do the high stances are the same ones who don't teach with Korean terminology. I know there are some non-traditional TSD schools out there that don't use Korean except for forms - which saddens me. If you're gonna practice the art, at least learn the techniques in the language so they mean more to you.
I'll admit to attempting some of the flashy moves, just for the heck of it, but in a fight I'm glad I have TSD training so I know how to block, respond, and keep myself alive as best I can.
I'm willing to bet that the set of schools who do the high stances are the same ones who don't teach with Korean terminology. I know there are some non-traditional TSD schools out there that don't use Korean except for forms - which saddens me. If you're gonna practice the art, at least learn the techniques in the language so they mean more to you.
Training difficult kicking techniques is good, I think, if you view them as balance exercies—kind of like doing superslow kicks and freezing the kick at its maximum extension: it's not a fighting technique (obviously!) but it's valuable as a tool for developing a sense of how your body should be changing its alignment over the course of a kick to keep you in the best balance possible. The complex kicks you're referring to can be used the same way. But if you do any `scenario' training for strictly SD purposes, the old warhorses—low front kicks, side kicks to the side of the knee from close in, while you control your opponent's body position and distance, ditto for knee strikes—are the ones to apply. Training complex kicks as balance exercises gives you a chance to do them in `good conscience', knowing that you're not setting yourself up to do something seriously impractical if you ever need to apply your training to a real fight.
It could be. I've found that one advantage to knowing the Korean terminology (and I could be a lot more dedicated to mastering it, alas) is that often people in technical descriptions of the KMAs use the Korean terms for techniques because there are so many idiosyncratic English expressions for those techs—descriptive names that vary from school to school. I've read descriptions of hyungs I know well that would have totally baffled me if I didn't already know how the form went, because the writer's terminology was so different from what I've learned. With the Korean terminology, you're more likely to find uniformity—sort of the same idea as having a standardized genus/species name in Latin for biologists; local usage might vary, but the Latin taxonym is standard.
I've always heard it put like this: Tang Soo Do is a martial art, while Tae Kwon Do is a sport.
Then you have only seen a portion of what TKD really is, in today world that is the major pictures most people use TSD is more selfdefense and tkd is more of a sport.
TKD has been a useful SD long before anyone thought of it being in the Olympics Games as a sport, remember the sport has only been around for 25 years or so. Karate is now consider a sport and for some it is and so is Judo for that matter but the truth lies in the instructor you choose, not really the style.
Then you have only seen a portion of what TKD really is, in today world that is the major pictures most people use TSD is more selfdefense and tkd is more of a sport.
TKD has been a useful SD long before anyone thought of it being in the Olympics Games as a sport, remember the sport has only been around for 25 years or so. Karate is now consider a sport and for some it is and so is Judo for that matter but the truth lies in the instructor you choose, not really the style.
Right on, Terry—exactly my point. Clearly, though, we have our work cut out for us to get this idea across to people who've only been exposed to the sport side of TKD. One of my big gripes with KKW/WTF is that if you go by what they publicize, you'd never know there was anything to TKD except the ring competition aspect...
Yea I know what you mean exile it is sad when the sport has taken over and the instructor that are teaching really never was exposed to the anti-sport side of TKD. Maybe one day with great people like you and a few here on MT we can spend the news about a revolutionary Art called Tae Kwon Do and one day it will come to past as it once was.
matt.m
Senior Master
You guys know that there is a good spot and reason for the sport. However, I am with you 100 %, that is my main gripe about judo as well.
However, you all know what I think "Learn the art, get decent/good/great at it. Compete with a ruleset and dominate." To me the art is the most important aspect, gee I would rather see masterfully done poomse than sparring any day.
Last night I was told by my GM that I don't tkd spar, I self defense spar. He said, your combos you use predominately would be used in a street fight and you wander why people are more defensive with you than offensive.
Peace out
However, you all know what I think "Learn the art, get decent/good/great at it. Compete with a ruleset and dominate." To me the art is the most important aspect, gee I would rather see masterfully done poomse than sparring any day.
Last night I was told by my GM that I don't tkd spar, I self defense spar. He said, your combos you use predominately would be used in a street fight and you wander why people are more defensive with you than offensive.
Peace out
Last night I was told by my GM that I don't tkd spar, I self defense spar. He said, your combos you use predominately would be used in a street fight and you wander why people are more defensive with you than offensive.
Peace out
Excellent, Matt---that would be music to mine ears, someone saying that to me! :ultracool
JT_the_Ninja
Black Belt
Same here. That's why I fear my sa bom nim...he doesn't do a triple-axle spinning back tatsumaki sempuu kyaku, but he can floor me in a heartbeat and break something in the process.
FieldDiscipline
2nd Black Belt
I'm with exile and Terry here.
Todays Taekwondo is interpreted in many ways, just because what you have seen on video games is flashy and ineffective doesnt mean that that is a true reflection of TKD. My training is pretty similar to what you have recounted exile. On a purely practical level it is far easier to to elbow strike someones jaw that throw a bandae dolyeo chagi in a crowded bar!
I suspect that if you were to speak with the wartime Black Tigers (korean special forces) they may agree.
Todays Taekwondo is interpreted in many ways, just because what you have seen on video games is flashy and ineffective doesnt mean that that is a true reflection of TKD. My training is pretty similar to what you have recounted exile. On a purely practical level it is far easier to to elbow strike someones jaw that throw a bandae dolyeo chagi in a crowded bar!
I suspect that if you were to speak with the wartime Black Tigers (korean special forces) they may agree.
Renshi I
White Belt
The Major difference between Tang Soo Do and Tae Kwon do is the influance. Tang Soo Do maintains its Chinese influance. It emphasises more circular movements and is not real heavy on kicks while tae kwon do [WTF standards], are heavy on kicks in fact if you watch a practicioner from the WTF you will find that they have stances that are more upright which enables faster foot movements while the other style of Tae Kwon do [ITF standards] have their root in a self defense and practical posture. The philpsophy of both tend to be similar in attitude down to how classes are conducted which lend its attitude to a more military, regimented type course. If you wanted to decide which one to involve with it would depend greately on your goals.At the end of the day, with practice and dilligence, you can be an outstanding practitioner. Hope this helps.http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/smilies/smileJap.gif
