Tall people shouldn't squat

[rmcrobertson]

1. The Dex is 6' 9" and change. he bends his knees. it's terrifying.

2. Sean, I am afraid that I can't follow your description. Of course one remains down in the stance--I actually recommend dropping more during transitions--but what you SEEM to be describing would be a very poor way to step through, forward or reverse; in the first place, you shouldn't have to, "catch yourself," in the fashion you're describing, since this would mean being very out of balance. Moreover, what's you're describing SEEMS to be a great way to hammer your knees, over time. I must be misinterpreting.

3. A kneel is not, at any point, a squat--or at least, it shouldn't be. And this is in general true, or should be true, for American kenpo, the definition of which you might want to go look up in Mr. Parker's, "Encyclopedia of Kenpo."

4. In kicks and cross-outs, I suppose one does, "catch," oneself--but not in the fashion you SEEM to be describing.

5. I repeat: kneels and squats are different, and squats put a helluva lot of pressure on the knees.

Again, though, I may be reading badly.

 

[Ippon Ken]

I am a fairly tall guy.....6 ft.......my style is based on RYUKYU KEMPO and dits mostly Boxing, my teacher keeps tell me to squat and keep my knees bent all the time..Now I have gotten better at it but still I can not get as low as he can, and he is like a whole foot shorter than me. I feel like I am trying my best but its not good enough....What to you suggest...should I keep trying, or try to find some other stance that whouldn't hinder my knees.....Now don['t get me wrong the style works just it gets so damn difficult...............Or and I just being a wimp about it. :jedi1:

Does he want you to squat or bend your knees? If he wants you to bend your knees in a long and wide stance then you're learning bad technique. If your stance is the right width (about 2 fists width, side-by-side, between your knee [if you touch it to the ground] and your other foots ankle) and the correct length (when you kneel your knee is in line with the other ankle) then bending your knees will feel totally natural.

You never want to leg locked. Your knees, both of them should always be bent so as to allow for either foot to transition and for maximum mobility (they should act as springs). It also keeps you ready for the shoot and sprawl. Watch boxer's legs and you'll notice that their knees are bent. In karate this allows for rising and falling power, and it also protects your kness from injury due to a leg kick, or solid plant.

That straight back leg stuff is bad technique. I hope everyone is learning proper techs and biomechanics based on reality and science and not kendo or stylistic influence. I don't think he's speaking of squatting or kneeling either, just bending the knees when in a forward stance (actually it should be every stance).

So to summarize, bending your knees is crucial, but everything has to be in order. From an exaggerated stance it will hurt your knees and make no sense at all, not even for leg conditioning- let alone fighting. Peace.

 

[Touch Of Death]

1. The Dex is 6' 9" and change. he bends his knees. it's terrifying.

2. Sean, I am afraid that I can't follow your description. Of course one remains down in the stance--I actually recommend dropping more during transitions--but what you SEEM to be describing would be a very poor way to step through, forward or reverse; in the first place, you shouldn't have to, "catch yourself," in the fashion you're describing, since this would mean being very out of balance. Moreover, what's you're describing SEEMS to be a great way to hammer your knees, over time. I must be misinterpreting.

3. A kneel is not, at any point, a squat--or at least, it shouldn't be. And this is in general true, or should be true, for American kenpo, the definition of which you might want to go look up in Mr. Parker's, "Encyclopedia of Kenpo."

4. In kicks and cross-outs, I suppose one does, "catch," oneself--but not in the fashion you SEEM to be describing.

5. I repeat: kneels and squats are different, and squats put a helluva lot of pressure on the knees.

Again, though, I may be reading badly.

Robert,
Every time you walk down the street you throw your weight forward and would fall were it not for that heel "catching" your forward momentum one step after the other. If you have ever misjudged the steps on a stairway while holding a box, or something, you would Know your whole world drops out from under you because the stepping foot didn't catch your body momentum when expected. Of course you are off balance when doing a step through! I'm not sure why you feel this is bad. Part of our communication problem, is that you are using the nouns squat and kneel, and I am using the verbs squat and kneel. Verbing encompasses the entire manuever from start to finish and your noun only refers to the finished product; so, if there is a problem with your reading comprehension, it is there; because, as I have stated before, you abandon squat and kneel halfway through. Your concern about the knee stress implies you can somehow see how bent my legs are at the point of abandonment. You can't; its just a bunch of words on a screen; however, I will say that yours and my stepthroughs probably don't look all that different. Getting back to knee stress though, a conditioned martial artist should be able to bend the knees to a the point of a standing crouch, because he or she has been conditioned to do so. You think what I'm describing is bad, you should try a S h i t o R y u class. Now there is some knee stress.
Thank you
Sean

 

[rmcrobertson]

First off, my reading comprehension's just fine, Sparky. I would advise yez not to take me on on matters of English, but if ya wanna go there...charge in, fella. And the best of British luck to you.

Second...the previous poster's comment that the straight back leg stuff is wrong, is, I believe, himself wrong. It's called a forward bow.

Third off...as I noted, yes, I suppose one does," catch oneself on certain maneuvers. However, the one (among several, as I noted...how's that reading comp going?) version I mentioned, breaking down a step-through in reverse to rear bow/cat stance, etc., is meant to alleviate a lot of that, as well as be practically useful in some situations. Moreover, while it's true that we may, "catch," ourselves on the heel when we miss a step, an ordinary step forward doesn't involve any such thing. Try it. Where's your weight? Do you ordinarily stick your heel in the ground as you step forward?

Fourth: there's a damn good reason that deep knee bends and squat-thrusts are not taught in high school phys ed classes any more, or shouldn't be. Guess what it is? If you're being taught these squats, in shito-ryu or anywhere else, you're going to pay with your knees.

Fifth: relax, all I'm really pointing out is that a squat isn't a kneel. Proof? Go to Paris; have lunch at the Cafe Polidor. Go to the toilet. Unless they changed it, they have what's called a toilet, "a la Turque:" two steel footprints, a hole in the floor between them. It is also called a squat toilet. I recommend the experiment of using it, a) squatting, b) in a close kneel as pictured in Mr. Parker's books, c) in a wide kneel as pictured in Mr. Parker's books. See if the outcome is the same. But take paper.

Interestingly, there's an editorial mistake in my copy of the "Encyclopedia:" the definitions of close and wide kneels are reversed. Oops.

 

[SMP]

Hi guys -I think I'll throw my 2 cents in

If you already have bad knees then yes squats may be hard on them - there are many exercises to help fix many knee problems. If you weigh more than your knees can support lose weight or find a style more suited to your body type. I have done squats (deep knee bends and lunges ) for years without problems. The key is working up to it. and doing other exercises to strengthen the supporting muscles involved.

Maybe this does not work with everybody but has worked with me and others that I know.

 

[Ippon Ken]

Are we talking about squatting as in lifting or "hunkerin' down", or are we talking about someone's instructor telling them to bend their knees when moving in a forward stance? I thought it was the latter.


As for me being wrong about straightening the back leg in a strong front stance (zenkutsu dachi), then I'm telling you gendai guys that is bad biomechanics for fighting. Now if you're speaking of doing a low hard bow stance then I'd say okay. That's a transition stance like the cat stance, not one to be used for forward locomotion. Your feet should only lose complete contact with the ground for a split second in the cat stance and you will not stay in a hard bow stance for any length of time. It is basically a throwing or tripping stance when used in karate. Stances that propel you forward should have flexibility of movement and transition in them. No legs should be locked. Both legs should always be bent. This is the way that toudi jutsu did it (original Okinawan karate). All that fencing stuff is from the modern Japanese kendo influence in schoolkid karate.

You should never repetitively squat below 90 degrees when doing squats, but is that what we're talking about here? Later. I'm steppin'...

 

[SMP]

As for me being wrong about straightening the back leg in a strong front stance (zenkutsu dachi), then I'm telling you gendai guys that is bad biomechanics for fighting. ...

I am wondering if you could explain why straightening the back leg ( in a front stance ) is bad ?

 

[Touch Of Death]

2. Sean, I am afraid that I can't follow you

Again, though, I may be reading badly.

Your words Bub. Anyways, If Kenpo is a balance of being out of balance, where should your balance be in a step through?
Sean

 

[rmcrobertson]

Right where it should be while you're using the toilet, "a la Turque," Sean.

After reading the guy's post about the transitional nature of the forward bow, I can only agree. Makes perfect sense; I needed to read better.

Sean, I read rather well. I was merely attempting to be polite. If you wish to believe that a squat and a kneel are the same, or that a neutral bow/horse stance is a squat in any sense, why, I certainly can't stop you. Mazeltov.

However, this is incorrect. No, it is not a matter of opinion or style.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Right where it should be while you're using the toilet, "a la Turque," Sean.

After reading the guy's post about the transitional nature of the forward bow, I can only agree. Makes perfect sense; I needed to read better.

Sean, I read rather well. I was merely attempting to be polite. If you wish to believe that a squat and a kneel are the same, or that a neutral bow/horse stance is a squat in any sense, why, I certainly can't stop you. Mazeltov.

However, this is incorrect. No, it is not a matter of opinion or style.

Robert, If you could cite where I said kneels and squats were the same, or where I even mentioned the horse stance, I'll conceed that argument. However, I'm stating you squat back and kneel forward. Neutrals are neutral, and a horse is a horse, of course, of course, unless of course you're in motion, of course! leave it to you, to compare stances in motion to sitting on the toilet, while yes, you center your weight above your butt, your legs are what keep your butt in motion. On the toilette, your legs only seem to counter balance us from falling in. The only way to move to the rear without starting to squat would be to break your posture by leaving your head in place, or to come up in stance and teeter on unbent legs;when moving forward, to avoid kneeling, you must again straighten your legs or swing your legs around the hip (bad form).
Sean

 

[rmcrobertson]

"That little sequence you just mentioned is called a squat. That's what I'm talking about."

The sequence mentioned in my post was a transition--or more accurately, one possible transition--from a neutral bow, through a step-through in reverse, to another neutral bow. The sequence I mentioned was: rear bow, cat stance, rear cross, unwind to neutral bow.

None of these are squats. Nor are they squat-like. If you do them/teach them as squats, you are doing them and/or teaching them badly.

You might wish to compare the beginning stances in the technique, "Squatting Sacrifice," to stepping out into a horse stance/meditating horse stance, so that you can see the difference clearly.

 

[Touch Of Death]

"That little sequence you just mentioned is called a squat. That's what I'm talking about."

The sequence mentioned in my post was a transition--or more accurately, one possible transition--from a neutral bow, through a step-through in reverse, to another neutral bow. The sequence I mentioned was: rear bow, cat stance, rear cross, unwind to neutral bow.

None of these are squats. Nor are they squat-like. If you do them/teach them as squats, you are doing them and/or teaching them badly.

You might wish to compare the beginning stances in the technique, "Squatting Sacrifice," to stepping out into a horse stance/meditating horse stance, so that you can see the difference clearly.

As I've stated, there is a difference between a full squat and the act of squatting. Of course all us kenpo guys teach this stuff badly, or else who would you have to feel superior too? So you name a few nouns within the verb and declare them non-squats, but I'm telling you that the whole sequence of motion is a squatting motion. Shifting nintey percent of your weight onto a bent leg while in motion is the begging of a squat, and the act of maintaining a constant head level means that leg is going to bend a bit more. Breaking the plane is not required if you give the word squat a little leeway. If you shatter a coffee cup its still a cup, all be it shattered. It is up to each individual to decide when it loses cupness, and before it got broken, mine was half full.
Sean

 

[rmcrobertson]

Generally speaking, Sean, you will find that retreat into ungrammatical statement, a multiplication of mere complication in language, and gnomicism, are the hallmarks of not knowing what the heck you're talking about. Only in the sense that all stance maneuvers involve checking yourself from falling on your *** are you correct.

But the rubric under which this thread has progressed is in the end, true: tall people (like anyone else) shouldn't squat.

They should kneel.

Hey, have you run any of the experiments I suggested?

 

[Touch Of Death]

Generally speaking, Sean, you will find that retreat into ungrammatical statement, a multiplication of mere complication in language, and gnomicism, are the hallmarks of not knowing what the heck you're talking about. Only in the sense that all stance maneuvers involve checking yourself from falling on your *** are you correct.

But the rubric under which this thread has progressed is in the end, true: tall people (like anyone else) shouldn't squat.

They should kneel.

Hey, have you run any of the experiments I suggested?

No, I generaly don't read or do the experiments you suggest. I'm a little hazy on the kneeling while moving in reverse thing. It makes no sense to me, being I don't know what the heck I'm talking about. Explain, if you would, where I drifted into bad complex grammar and I will attempt to re-explain. So, explain again how shifting all your weight onto your back leg, when doing a stepthrough in reverse, is kneel. I think I just need more info on that subject to see the light.
Sean

 

[rmcrobertson]

What I actually wrote, Sean--in specific reference to one of your claims about step-throughs in reverse--is that while there are severalo versions of step-throughs (for ex, what's sometimes called a, "friction step") to choose from, there are no versions involving a squat, or squatting. At least no good ones.

The specific sequence I mentioned--rear bow, cat stance, rear cross, neutral bow--can be used to break down the maneuver and understand/apply it better. However, none of these stances are squats, or involve squatting.

They involve bending your knees, shifting your weight, and changing the weight distribution on one's feet.

Hope that's clearer.

 

[Ippon Ken]

UHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, homeboy is talking about keeping your knees bent when you're in a fighting stance or boxing guard. It's a common boxing principle. Of course you guys who don't do real MAs or combat sport and therefore don't know how to throw hands for real would never understand this. You might even elaborate on an answer to a different question for days on end. Why would you ask me about your post or rear leg being straight? Is that how you were taught to move in your MAs training? Well your teachers are wrong then!

TOO bad they don't have those "R.I.F." or "Reading Is Fundamental" commercials anymore. Maybe they can make one call "C.I.F.E." or "Comprehension Is Frickin' Essential".

Hahaha! Boy oh boy! Now I gotta go cop a squat. Talk amongst yourselves about how to do that properly !

 

[Sin]

All in all am going to do as my instructor tells me and will just try and get better at what he wants. thank u all for the support and the info.
:asian:

 

[loki09789]

I am a fairly tall guy.....6 ft.......my style is based on RYUKYU KEMPO and dits mostly Boxing, my teacher keeps tell me to squat and keep my knees bent all the time..Now I have gotten better at it but still I can not get as low as he can, and he is like a whole foot shorter than me. I feel like I am trying my best but its not good enough....What to you suggest...should I keep trying, or try to find some other stance that whouldn't hinder my knees.....Now don['t get me wrong the style works just it gets so damn difficult...............Or and I just being a wimp about it. :jedi1:

Strengthening the muscles through the lower body with the "Squat" exercise with a straight bar (preferred) or dumbells/machine will accomplish a few things.

Firstly, on a neurological level, your body will adapt and tune in to the proper form that will keep the load from off balancing you - which will translate to better mechanical/technical form/control and stability in martial arts "squat" or "bent knee" positions.

Secondly, it will improve the muscle endurance/strength around these key hinges/joints to reduce the chance of injury because of strength imbalance, fatigue (will still happen, but take longer to set in), instability...

Moving outside of "mechanical efficiency" for your body because of size differences is a great "art/learning challenge" because it forces you to really examine technique, deliver, and so on. BUT when you hit the street and have to use your art for self defense, go with what works instead of forcing yourself into 'strict form responses' or something that will be mechanically slower (like trying to get down too low on a shorter opponent) than using something from your 'tool box of dirty basics' that you can rely on and will probably be more mechanically efficient which will translate to speed, confidence and a higher statistical chance of success/escape.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Mr. "Ippon Ken:"

What you're describing is still not a squat, or anything close to one. But I agree that a really good way to learn and to practice a fighting stance is to actually do one.

And while I realize that some folks will hoot at this, it's my impression that a lot of the reluctance to bend the knees has nothing whatsoever to do with anything other than ego and its stubbornesses. Kinda like claiming that only people who do exactly what we do do real martial arts.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Mr. "Ippon Ken:"

... it's my impression that a lot of the reluctance to bend the knees has nothing whatsoever to do with anything other than ego and its stubbornesses. Kinda like claiming that only people who do exactly what we do do real martial arts.

Amen brother. :asian: