talk to me about Kusari fundo

[DuskB4Dawn]

just wanted to know what the name of the scroll was that has the Kusari-fundo techniques that was included into the gyoko ryu by hatsumi? I would like to study this in more detail. and it would be good to have this for reference.

 

[Chris Parker]

There is no scroll, it was integrated from Hatsumi's training in Masaki Ryu. You may be able to find some part of Masaki Ryu around, but that's it. The scroll wouldn't help you without guidance, it must be said (even if there was one).

 

[Bruno@MT]

The scrolls themselves really do not contain that much knowledge.
Or rather: they contain names of techniques and things which act as reminder to the legitimate holder of the scroll. It would be pointless to you.

Take for example the term 'hicho sabaki'. It is listed in the 'densho' for 9th kyu, together with the attack for which it is used. Translated it means something like the sabaki of a bird taking off for flight. Good luck figuring it out

Even if you have our training manual, you'll only see a couple of words explanation and a picture, either of which may be intentionally wrong to make sure that the manual is worthless to anyone who doesn't have a teacher to point out the mistakes. Some mistakes would get hit in the head it you tried to do it like in the explanation.

So I don't think a scroll without personal tuition is of any value to you. If you want to get started learning something specific, ask your teacher what would be suitable for you to learn at your current skill level.

 

[Chris Parker]

The scrolls themselves really do not contain that much knowledge.
Or rather: they contain names of techniques and things which act as reminder to the legitimate holder of the scroll. It would be pointless to you.

Take for example the term 'hicho sabaki'. It is listed in the 'densho' for 9th kyu, together with the attack for which it is used. Translated it means something like the sabaki of a bird taking off for flight. Good luck figuring it out

Even if you have our training manual, you'll only see a couple of words explanation and a picture, either of which may be intentionally wrong to make sure that the manual is worthless to anyone who doesn't have a teacher to point out the mistakes. Some mistakes would get hit in the head it you tried to do it like in the explanation.

So I don't think a scroll without personal tuition is of any value to you. If you want to get started learning something specific, ask your teacher what would be suitable for you to learn at your current skill level.

Oh, what his teacher would say is rather easy.... work on the handouts that you've been given. There's more than enough in those pages to keep you going for months, if not years, before needing to go onto anything else.

When it comes down to it, interest is great, essential even. But it needs to be tempered with the patience to develop the skills necessary to get the benefit of the other areas of study. Without that, all you get is a whole bunch of partially understood and partially trained relatively non-existant skills.

 

[DuskB4Dawn]

hmm maybe not than. I will have to learn from whatever is taught in class. Since the change weapon every month and it is sword for one month hanbo for one month and than a weapon of sensei's choice it could take years to go through all of gyoko ryu kusari fundo.

is it so wrong to take your training into your own hands. if you are interested in something. should you have to wait so long. i have remember and written down and analysed in detail the 3 kata you have shown me sensei Parker aswell as the variations and i have practice this at home. kasari fundo is such a versitile weapon there is so much you can do. throws grabs locks strikes. what about counters from someone grabbing the chain. there is so much to learn but if i dont make an effort to put attention to something that interest me. than i will never get the benifit of this interest.

its like shurikenjutsu. it was something I took the time to discover and im really glad i did. it is really injoyable and i like the challange of learning how to throw shuriken. measuring distance and rotatations plus different size shuriken and weight and how it effects the throw. I feel kusari fundo is the same. it is an artform unto itself.

anyway not to get to offtopic here. may i ask how much kusari fundo technique is covered within gyoko ryu. and does gyoko ryu have specific size and dimension for thier kusari fundo? just like how certain ryu have different size and dimension for thier shuriken?

 

[Chris Parker]

hmm maybe not than. I will have to learn from whatever is taught in class. Since the change weapon every month and it is sword for one month hanbo for one month and than a weapon of sensei's choice it could take years to go through all of gyoko ryu kusari fundo.

Okay, to be definate about this, there are no set techniques/kata/waza for Kusari Fundo in Gyokko Ryu. I used a range of Masaki Ryu kata for class. What there are is a series of principles, concepts, and actions gleaned from Masaki Ryu and re-worked in the principles of Gyokko Ryu, often starting with variations of the Gyokko Ryu kata themselves.

When it comes to the weapons studied, sword and hando become the basis for understanding the weapon handling which can then be applied to the other weapons studied. So working on those is the most important, and when you have some skill with that, that's when you can start branching out a lot more. Typically, for us, that means that Hanbo is studied four months out of a year, Sword is studied four months out of a year, and the other four months are a different weapon each, making a total of six weapons covered each year. This year, with Togakure being a focus for us for the last six months, will be a little broader, as Togakure deals with a fair amount of weaponry itself, including Shuko, Shuriken (Senban Nage), Metsubishi, Ninja Biken (Sword), and so on. Attacking weapons include spear as well as sword. So you'll cover a fair amount this year....

is it so wrong to take your training into your own hands. if you are interested in something. should you have to wait so long.

No, it's not wrong per se, but patience is required. Think about your post on the Kyusho of Koto Ryu, you mentioned that it didn't seem like Koppojutsu to you, as it was striking to muscles, nerves, and organs. This is despite my explaining what Koppojutsu actually was in the class directly beforehand. The point is that until you understand what is being presented, going out and trying to put together what you think something actually is can see you getting completely off the right track, which can take far longer than you may realise to correct. How long it takes to get to that point is dependant on the person, and the way they approach the training.

i have remember and written down and analysed in detail the 3 kata you have shown me sensei Parker aswell as the variations and i have practice this at home.

That's fine, but remember to check back with me to ensure you got them down properly. From watching you (and the rest of the class), there's a very good chance that there can be some issues with the way you may be practicing them. Almost no-one actually really got them properly, so you know.

kasari fundo is such a versitile weapon there is so much you can do. throws grabs locks strikes. what about counters from someone grabbing the chain.

Okay, free lesson time, the word is spelt "kusari", rather than "kasari". It just means "chain". And, yes, there are a large range of actions possible, including counters from someone grabbing your weapon. But they are only really able to be approached once basic handling of the weapon is achieved.

there is so much to learn but if i dont make an effort to put attention to something that interest me. than i will never get the benifit of this interest.

Ha, yes, there is a lot to learn. Again, if there is something that interests you in particular, I recommend talking to me about a private lesson. But be prepared for me telling you that certain things need to be done first. It's not to keep you back, or test your patience, or anything of the kind, more just that certain skills necessarily have to follow others, and in order for you to get the most benefit out of one particular area, you need to do the pre-work first.

its like shurikenjutsu. it was something I took the time to discover and im really glad i did. it is really injoyable and i like the challange of learning how to throw shuriken. measuring distance and rotatations plus different size shuriken and weight and how it effects the throw.

Can be interesting, yeah. There's quite a range of things that can come under that banner, though, so again until you get it checked off by me, don't be too sure that it's actually shurikenjutsu, it may just have similarities (such as knife throwing, which is not shurikenjutsu, but certainly shares similarities with it).

it is not something taught in modern ninjutsu but it used to be an important part of ninjutsu and some swordmanship schools included shuriken. I feel kasari fundo is the same. it is an artform unto itself.

Actually, shurikenjutsu is taught in most modern schools (Genbukan, Bujinkan, Jinenkan etc). As far as it being an "important part of ninjutsu", depends on the system. So you know, though, the kuden aspects of Koto Ryu include the use of shuriken, known as Teppan in this Ryu. We won't be covering it specifically, although I may make some mention of it at some point.

anyway not to get to offtopic here. may i ask how much kasari fundo technique is covered within gyoko ryu. and does gyoko ryu have specific size and dimension for thier kasari fundo? just like how certain ryu have different size and dimension for thier shuriken?

Depends on the instructor, really, mainly because, as I said, there are no formal Gyokko Ryu Kusari Fundo kata. As for dimensions, it is taken pretty much directly from Masaki Ryu, which is a chain the same length as your arm from shoulder to fingers, with the weights slightly elongated and hexagonal, tapering out to the ends. If you saw the one I brought in, that's pretty much it.

 

[DuskB4Dawn]

it is not something taught in modern ninjutsu but it used to be an important part of ninjutsu and some swordmanship schools included shuriken. I feel kasari fundo is the same. it is an artform unto itself.

by the way I deleted this from my post because I realized I don't know enough of the history to make a comment on this.

for some reason i keep spelling kusari as kasari. talk bout bad habits. anyway I edited this from my post.

so its actually principles, concepts, and actions gleaned from Masaki Ryu. once you know these you can adapt it to work with kata. I have thought of this before and tried it with the sanshin no gata. somethings work well and some kata don't fit with kusari fundo.

is there a trade offs for having a weapon vs empty hand like not being able to grab is a dissadvantage but increased range is an advantage? also with kusari fundo are you only effective at a distance and are at a dissadvantage up close?

 

[Chris Parker]

I'll show you some Sanshin ideas with Kusari Fundo this week, if you'd like.

 

[DuskB4Dawn]

that would be great. thankyou sensei

 

[DuskB4Dawn]

isnt it true Gyokushin Ryu also specialise in kusari fumdo? i read this on the internet this must be because Gyokushin Ryu's founder Sasaki Goemon was originally from the Gyokko Ryu.
is sasaki goemon the same as goemon the shinobi master thief? probley not
anyway doesn't matter
did gyokko ryu originate in china. if so did the kusari fundo originate from the chinese chain wip? or the other way around? food for thought.

by the way Sensei Parker on the dimensions of the Masaki Ryu kusari fumdo.
you said weights slightly elongated and hexagonal, tapering out to the ends..
how long is the actual weights do you grip with 3 fingers or 4 fingers?

 

[Chris Parker]

Gyokushin Ryu has an established history with the Nagenawa, a form of rope used as a lasso, not the Kusari Fundo. Remember, it wasn't integrated into any of the Bujinkan traditions until Hatsumi brought it in, so any earlier arts that came from Gyokko Ryu wouldn't have it in there from that system.

In terms of the founder of Gyokushin Ryu, there have been a few variants of the name used, including Sasaki Goemon (not the same one as the famous thief, I believe), Sasaki Orouemon Akiyari, and Sasaki Gendayu Sadayasu. What is definate is that the Sasaki family kept the Gyokushin Ryu secret for many generations, with it's teachings based in Gyokko Ryu (Sasaki was a student of the 12th Soke of Gyokko Ryu, Sogyokkan Ritsushi, who reorganised the Gyokko Ryu into Kosshijutsu. His students also included the founders of Izumo Ryu Koppojutsu and Gikan Ryu Koppotaijutsu).

Gyokko Ryu's origins include the story that the original concepts were developed in China, where they were used by a Princess, or Lady in Waiting, or possibly a small statured guard at the Imperial Palace. So, yes, it did originate in China, but it didn't become Gyokko Ryu until it came to Japan, and matured into the Ryu itself.

The Kusari Fundo is credited to Masaki Dannoshin Toshiyoshi, a Samurai who wanted to develop a way of stopping a sword-armed attacker in the Court without the dishonour of spilling blood. He developed the use of a short chain with two weights attached, refering to the weapon as "Manriki Kusari", or "Ten Thousand Power Chain". This was in the mid-1700's. Masaki was already an expert in a few sword systems, and had developed his own Kusarigama system, which became the basis of the Masaki Ryu Manriki Kusarijutsu (which still retains some Kusarigama jutsu within the syllabus). So no, it's not based on a Chinese whip-chain. They are completely unrelated.

Ideally, as with pretty much all Japanese weapons, the correct grip is with the last two or three fingers anyway, so the length of the weights don't really make that much difference to that. But you should have a small part of the weight protruding from beneath your grip. There are some pretty good images found here: http://www.robertg.com/masakiryu.htm

 

[skuggvarg]

Remember, it wasn't integrated into any of the Bujinkan traditions until Hatsumi brought it in, so any earlier arts that came from Gyokko Ryu wouldn't have it in there from that system.

While ive heard that Hatsumi sensei studied Masaki ryu kusarifundojutsu under Nawa Sensei Im curious as to your sources for the above statement? I am under the impression that the waza from Gyokko ryu and Masaki ryu are not the same and that Hatsumi sensei has not added this to the school.

Regards / Skuggvarg

 

[Chris Parker]

Good question. I'm going back about 15+ years for that information, from memory it was in an article in one of the old Ninja magazine issues, I think possibly with Charles Daniel. Don't quote me on that, though, as I can't find the source at present (an old student "borrowed" many of my magazines years ago, and then just didn't turn up to class ever again! Learnt to be careful who I lend things out to, though...), and I'm completely open to being corrected on that. Although, I will say that I have heard it said that the Kusari Fundo is not a traditional weapon for any of the traditions from my instructor, my Chief Instructor, and a few others, so that backed up what I believe. That, and there's no source listing the use of the Kusari Fundo that I've ever found prior to Hatsumi Sensei. I've seen footage and heard stories of Takamatsu teaching Kyoketsu Shoge and Kusari Gama, but that's it.

 

[skuggvarg]

Well, even if there are lots of pictures, a 8 mm film and some stories floating around about Takamatsu and his martial abilities there is lots that is not known to the public. I consider it the tip of the iceberg. My understanding is that there are several chained weapons associated with the Takamatsu Ryu-ha (some have rope instead of chain). The Kusari gama and kyoketsu shoge are just two. Since there are some 300 waza in the Masaki ryu, should Hatsumi sensei have included Masaki ryu into lets say Gyokko ryu, there would be at least a few different waza.

Regards / Skuggvarg

 

[Chris Parker]

I'd certainly agree about Takamatsu Sensei there. When it comes to the flexible weapons, the Kyoketsu Shoge was said to have been developed by Hachiryu Nyudo, the teacher of Hakuunsai Tozawa, founder of Gyokko Ryu, and that is said to have later developed into the KusariGama. In terms of other weapons, as I said earlier, Gyokushin Ryu, which comes from Gyokko Ryu, is said to have been very good with a rope, and I've heard of some Kukishin Jo kata having henka with Chigiriki. And there are other short chain weapons, such as ones with three lengths of chain extending from a centre point, with the ends weighted or not, and many different versions of KusariGama in different schools. So lot's of toys to play with, really!

 

[Indagator]

Good question. I'm going back about 15+ years for that information, from memory it was in an article in one of the old Ninja magazine issues, I think possibly with Charles Daniel. Don't quote me on that, though, as I can't find the source at present (an old student "borrowed" many of my magazines years ago, and then just didn't turn up to class ever again! Learnt to be careful who I lend things out to, though...), and I'm completely open to being corrected on that. .

I'm pretty sure I may have the article archived in one of my .pdf archives. I'll check if you'd like - just to clarify would it have been from about '86? The article I'm thinking of was from somewhere about that time period IIRC so if it's the same one I am quite happy to dig it back out if you'd like?

 

[Chris Parker]

Yep, that'd seem about right. I can't remember if it was in the same article as Charles discussed the concepts in naming things in Japanese (breaking different meanings of Gyokko Ryu down, such as Gyo [correct practice, rather than "jewel", or "jade"], Ko [tiger], Ryu [dragon, rather than "style"], making Gyokko Ryu the "correct practice of the philosophy of tiger and dragon [In/Yo, Yin/Yang, Confusian dualism etc, Koteki Ryuda concepts etc]), and from memory it was a later issue reprinting that earlier article (from the mid-80's), as they tended to do as the magazine was winding down. If you can find it, that'd be great.

 

[Indagator]

Hi there Mr Parker,

I still cannot post attachments which is a P.I.A. as I was simply going to "snasphot" the article out of the archive .pdf and attach it to a post in this thread.

Instead what I'll have to do is paste the text of the article in here, unfortunately I can't post the pictures either.

Here's the article's text anyway:

Copyrighted material deleted. jks9199

That's one of the articles, anyway. There is at least one other somewhere in there but it is really just an introduction to kusarifundo (there is a parallel article introducing kyoketsu shoge as well and neither of them contain much of a real substance of information.)

Was it the one you remembered?​

 

[DuskB4Dawn]

this is good information Indagator. thanks
i didn't know there was so much variety. i am interested in the different in ho w the fundo weight is designed and lenght of the chain. also how would you use a three chain kusari fundo? would that be striking with 2 chains?

 

[Chris Parker]

Yeah, I remember that one. I'm thinking of an article not by Hatsumi Sensei, though, which stated that it was not part of the curriculum of any of the schools until Hatsumi brought it in from Masaki Ryu, and due to Gyokko's association with flexible weapons, it was brought into that Ryu-ha. I also remember having discussions with my instructor about this, as another source.

DuskB4Dawn, the uses and measurements (as I mentioned) are dependant on the school who was using the particular weapon. Similarly, the use would change as well. When it comes to a three-chained variant, it could be used in a number of ways, most obviously as a type of double-flail (hold one end, "whip" an opponent with the other two). Other than that, you could hold two, and use the third to entangle the opponents weapon or weapon hand, then while they are occupied with that, strike with the other two ends, and so on.