Takedowns in Jow Ga Kung Fu

[Steve]

I actually agree with you, but there are people who I think do believe it does. "BJJ and MMA are very popular right now, therefor I need to change my training to XYZ in response to the threat that they represent".

I just don't live my life that way.

Lots of insecurity out there, I agree. And ultimately, if you are caught up in reacting to what everyone else is doing, you're probably aren't training for constructive reasons in the first place. I mean, really, outside of LEO or other professional interests, the likelihood that any of us will use any of these skills outside of the gym is very, very small. Best, IMO, to just train what interests you and let others do the same.

 

[Steve]

Kickin


Kicking/punching, Qinna and Shuaijiao.... all Chinese martial arts styles have all 3 to varying degrees..... end of story....others don't want to believe that...I'm ok with that...it is to my advantage.

Who are these "others" you speak of? Are these "others" guys you expect to fight? If not, what advantage do you have if these "others" misunderstand whether grappling is in CMA?

 

[JowGaWolf]

This is a picture from one of our classes where we were focusing on stances. We took turns shooting / tackling at the waist in various types of stances. The rules to this were that we couldn't use our hands to defend push the other person off or to turn them. The experience gain was a better understanding of what happens mentally from an attacker's perspective and what happens from the defender's perspective. We had no problem with going for the waist when the person had a high stance. It was easy to get under the arms and to the waist. But when the person dropped into a lower stance it actually caused us to hesitate with the shoot. This is something that we all felt as we were going through this exercise.

In the picture my waist is normally at the same height as my elbows. When I'm in a high stance there is not much that is getting in the way of someone who wants to tackle me at the waist. The lower stance moves my waist behind my guard. My foot appears to be an easy target but I can strike or press down anything that comes to that level. I can also grapple from this stance. A higher stance won't allow me to punch below my knees but a low stance allows it.

Wrestlers utilize a similar low stance with the exception that their stance isn't good for punching or defending a punch (which makes sense because it's wrestling). You can see how the waist is deep within the guard and any attempted grabs at the leg below the knew can be pushed down.

I took a look at a wide range of fighting systems that were heavy in grappling and they all had one thing in common, they all used stances that put their waist be hind their guard. It also appeared that if they wanted high mobility they would be in a stance that is similar to what the wrestlers in the pictures are in. For Judo and Mongolian wrestling the stances were higher and the movements were not as big or fast until an attack was attempted. They also used lower stances as well. I also paid attention to the movement while in stances and the wider stance was the one that really was able to move. Fencing isn't a grappling system but they are good with their footwork agility and use a variation of the horse stance and bow stance.

These were just a few things that made me look deeper into my stance training. Now when I do my stance training I don't just stand there trying to see how long I can hold a stance. I still do that exercises but I also have new stance training exercises based on the context for the offense or defense that the stance is being used in. Recently I've been drilling really hard to increase my the mobility of my horse stance.

 

[Flying Crane]

I was actually adding to what you stated. I'll try to make it clearer next time. I wrote the comment for others who may think that they have to change their training just be able to deal with grappling, or for those who think that grappling isn't part of their system (which in some cases may be true for some non CMAs). When I used the word "you" it was out of habit of using "you" in a general sense and not directly addressed to you specifically. So I apologize for the confusion I created.


This part of your statement is what I was adding to. I see this happening in schools that teach karate and hapkido where, they actually teach "MMA and BJJ" as part of their Karate or Hapkido curriculum. Granted that it's was probably done for business purposes, there was no need to go that route if their school actually has grappling techniques in it. They change their training because of the popularity of MMA and BJJ. The moment they start practicing MMA and BJJ techniques is the exact moment they stop doing Hapkido.
This is what I thought of when I read your comment about changing training. MMA – Mixed Martial Arts | Choe's HapKiDo

Gotcha,thanks, I appreciate it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Who are these "others" you speak of? Are these "others" guys you expect to fight? If not, what advantage do you have if these "others" misunderstand whether grappling is in CMA?

Steve....my take on your post is it is an attempt to inflame..... if I misunderstand I apologize... but it seems pretty easy to figure out what I am saying based on the post... have a nice day

 

[Steve]

Steve....my take on your post is it is an attempt to inflame..... if I misunderstand I apologize... but it seems pretty easy to figure out what I am saying based on the post... have a nice day

Not trying to inflame. Truly have no clue why you guys are arguing with each other about what bjj or MMA guys are supposedly saying when literally no one around here is saying those things. I am legitimately confused about who these others are whom you assert are saying that there is no grappling in cma. It may be easy to figure out your post for most, but for me I don't get it.




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[Xue Sheng]

Not trying to inflame. Truly have no clue why you guys are arguing with each other about what bjj or MMA guys are supposedly saying when literally no one around here is saying those things. I am legitimately confused about who these others are whom you assert are saying that there is no grappling in cma. It may be easy to figure out your post for most, but for me I don't get it.




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Look at any style bashing post on MT today, and there are a lot to choose from. BJJ, MMA all superior to all other arts, ..... because they have grappling and others do not... when in fact they do....a few talking about those other arts the bash like they are experts at them when they have never trained them at all... If you haven't see them, I am surprised, and I suggest you take another look around, you may need to go back and reread a few.....No I will not point you to any...look if you really want to understand.... MT tends to irritate me more these days that I think it is worth so I will not go back and review the irritants so I can point them out to you...sorry..... that is why I tend to stay within CMA and non-serious areas of MT these days..... I'm done with this....sorry you don't get it...... I shall say no more on this

 

[JowGaWolf]

I would like to hear any tips, advice or things that any of you may know or have discovered about your CMA .

 

[Xue Sheng]

Every form in Taijiquan and Xingyiquan has more than one application and can be used in more than one situation

All of the forms of Xingyiquan Wuxingquan should be practiced using opposite leg and fist, at angles and straight.

Hengquan, of xingyiquan can be a punch to the kidneys, strike under the arm or one hell of a take down

The low kick you see in many Xingyi Wuxingquan forms is very similar to a JKD punch, it is more of an arc. And it is generally to the knee

Stand up fighting in XIngyiquan (yes it can do that) is also rather similar to JKD, just it is a back weighted stance and not a front weighted stance

 

[JowGaWolf]

Hengquan, of xingyiquan can be a punch to the kidneys, strike under the arm or one hell of a take down

I took a look at it and I didn't see the take down in it. I'll have to keep looking.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I took a look at it and I didn't see the take down in it. I'll have to keep looking.

Like I said, you have to also train opposite arm and leg too, the style is not as rigid as many believe. There are at least 3 different ways I know that are all called Hengquan, one of those is a take down and that one is similar to taijiquan yě mǎ fēn zōng (part wild horses mane), just xingyiquan is a bit more aggressive in its approach

 

[Steve]

Look at any style bashing post on MT today, and there are a lot to choose from. BJJ, MMA all superior to all other arts, ..... because they have grappling and others do not... when in fact they do....a few talking about those other arts the bash like they are experts at them when they have never trained them at all... If you haven't see them, I am surprised, and I suggest you take another look around, you may need to go back and reread a few.....No I will not point you to any...look if you really want to understand.... MT tends to irritate me more these days that I think it is worth so I will not go back and review the irritants so I can point them out to you...sorry..... that is why I tend to stay within CMA and non-serious areas of MT these days..... I'm done with this....sorry you don't get it...... I shall say no more on this

I get it and don't expect you to dredge it up. I understand that there are a lot of misconceptions around here about what people train, how they train and why they train, and I wasn't trying to stir the pot. I was just trying to suggest that misconceptions are going both directions. I do think that you have a lot of good reasons to believe as you do, but don't think it's not quite as cut and dry as you suggest. It's all good. Thanks for the response.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I get it and don't expect you to dredge it up. I understand that there are a lot of misconceptions around here about what people train, how they train and why they train, and I wasn't trying to stir the pot. I was just trying to suggest that misconceptions are going both directions. I do think that you have a lot of good reasons to believe as you do, but don't think it's not quite as cut and dry as you suggest. It's all good. Thanks for the response.

never mind and just forget I said anything at all

 

[JowGaWolf]

Hengquan, one of those is a take down and that one is similar to taijiquan yě mǎ fēn zōng (part wild horses mane), just xingyiquan is a bit more aggressive in its approach

thanks for the reference. The taijiquan reference helps, now I know what I should be focusing on when I look again. It's one of those moves that doesn't look like much until it's shown in application.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

My goal is to learn how to use kung fu grappling and I can't reach that by taking bjj. It's nothing against bjj. It's just me learning how to use my kung fu better and how to apply it against other fighting systems.

If you extract some grappling skill out of your CMA system, you may find out that since the information is not complete, it's very difficult to use those information as base and build your grappling skill on top of it. The grappling skill is much more than just a "shoot to the leg". For example,

How to

- apply the same throw from different angles?
- apply the same throw from different set up?
- counter a throw?
- change one throw into another?
- use kick, punch to set up your throw?
- develop your grip fighting skill?
- obtain a clinch ASAP?
- break away from a clinch?
- ...

You may just touch the skin of the grappling art this way. But you will never be able to get deeper into your grappling skill development. You may also develop some false confidence and think you can deal with Judo black belt or state level wrestlers.

Many years ago, a CMA school extracted some grappling skill out of their CMA system. That school sent 15 students to compete in one national level Shuai Chiao tournament. All 15 students lose. Since then that school has never sent any student to the grappling tournament. If you don't wrestle 15 rounds daily, it will be very difficult for your wrestling skill to work on the mat.

If you want to be a wrestler, you just have to train as a wrestler. You will also need a full knowledge to build your skill on. IMO, partial knowledge is just not enough.

 

[Star Dragon]

I see no problem in taking up a grappling art and adapting it to one's base system.