Takedowns in Jow Ga Kung Fu

[JowGaWolf]

A lot of times people think that there is no grappling in Kung Fu so I just wanted to share my Sifu's short post from his blog.

"Authentic Kung Fu should contain all aspects of open hand combat; striking, kicking, wrestling and joint locks"

You can read the blog here. There is a video in the blog that shows some our techniques.
Take Downs in Kung Fu Blog

There are about 5 or 6 takedowns. Shown.

The video in the blog (1:14) shows the real world application of the technique shown here at the 2:12 mark in this demo video below. The technique is the same, but the stances aren't. I'm not sure if the technique would work the way it's shown in the demo video. But it definitely works as shown in the blog.

Let me know if you have questions about using your kung fu to defend against take downs, or you can ask my Sifu directly on the blog. I don't mind sharing how I go about it since it may help to understand how it might apply to your fighting system.

 

[Star Dragon]

Right. Many Chinese styles have techniques from Shuai Jiao (wrestling) and Chin Na (joint locking) in them. Authors which wrote about and demonstrated Kung Fu's grappling side extensively include Jwing Ming Yang and Tim Cartnell.

Similarly, Karate (especially in its original Okinawan form) has plenty of throwing and joint locking techniques, even though many people associate Karate exclusively with ballistic strikes.

 

[clfsean]

All TCMAs have Shuai, Da, Ti, Na ... All. It depends on how much one is emphasized over the other. None is better than the other & none are worse than the other. It depends on the focus.

 

[JowGaWolf]

All TCMAs have Shuai, Da, Ti, Na ... All. It depends on how much one is emphasized over the other. None is better than the other & none are worse than the other. It depends on the focus.

Hopefully more schools are placing more focus on it with all of these grabby people out there.

 

[clfsean]

Hopefully more schools are placing more focus on it with all of these grabby people out there.

Well that's the rub. It depends on the school & what they have & if it was passed on. If a teacher wasn't big on the grabbing but preferred hitting, you see where the emphasis is.

Not every school works all four or in some cases more than just one. It doesn't change what they do as CMA, it just focuses their direction is all & shouldn't ever cause a discounting of what they do.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Well that's the rub. It depends on the school & what they have & if it was passed on. If a teacher wasn't big on the grabbing but preferred hitting, you see where the emphasis is.

Not every school works all four or in some cases more than just one. It doesn't change what they do as CMA, it just focuses their direction is all & shouldn't ever cause a discounting of what they do.

Oh definitely it doesn't discount what they do. It's just that so many people are doing MMA and BJJ these days, that some people may be curious about grappling techniques within their own system. Sharing information about other methods and techniques can often shed light on our own systems.

 

[Flying Crane]

Oh definitely it doesn't discount what they do. It's just that so many people are doing MMA and BJJ these days, that some people may be curious about grappling techniques within their own system. Sharing information about other methods and techniques can often shed light on our own systems.

Personally, I would recommend anyone with curiosity about MMA or BJJ to just go to a school that teaches that, and give it a whirl.

I think it's important for everyone to simply be honest with yourself and others, about what you do and do not do, where your skills are and are not, especially those who teach. If grappling is not where you have training and skills or personal interest, then be honest about it and don't try to teach it. Focus your teaching on the skills that you do have, the skills that you can pass along to a student. And don't feel like you need to apologize for it, if they might have an interest in something you don't know or have no interest in yourself. If a student chooses to pursue that other thing, be ok with it. Everyone needs to find what is right for them.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Personally, I would recommend anyone with curiosity about MMA or BJJ to just go to a school that teaches that, and give it a whirl.

I think it's important for everyone to simply be honest with yourself and others, about what you do and do not do, where your skills are and are not, especially those who teach. If grappling is not where you have training and skills or personal interest, then be honest about it and don't try to teach it. Focus your teaching on the skills that you do have, the skills that you can pass along to a student. And don't feel like you need to apologize for it, if they might have an interest in something you don't know or have no interest in yourself. If a student chooses to pursue that other thing, be ok with it. Everyone needs to find what is right for them.

The problem with this is that if I do Bjj then I'm not learning how to use the grappling techniques that are actually in my fighting system. My goal is to learn how to use kung fu grappling and I can't reach that by taking bjj. It's nothing against bjj. It's just me learning how to use my kung fu better and how to apply it against other fighting systems.

 

[clfsean]

The problem with this is that if I do Bjj then I'm not learning how to use the grappling techniques that are actually in my fighting system. My goal is to learn how to use kung fu grappling and I can't reach that by taking bjj. It's nothing against bjj. It's just me learning how to use my kung fu better and how to apply it against other fighting systems.

Sometimes if you don't see a thing, there's a reason.

 

[Flying Crane]

The problem with this is that if I do Bjj then I'm not learning how to use the grappling techniques that are actually in my fighting system. My goal is to learn how to use kung fu grappling and I can't reach that by taking bjj. It's nothing against bjj. It's just me learning how to use my kung fu better and how to apply it against other fighting systems.

Fair enough. What I'm really getting at is, don't go down that silly rabbit hole of, everything we do is determined by the "threat" of BJJ and MMA. That's nonsense.

By all means, explore every aspect of your chosen system that you find yourself interested in. Do it to better your training, do it because you are interested in it. Don't do it because you think MMA and BJJ tells you that you must.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Fair enough. What I'm really getting at is, don't go down that silly rabbit hole of, everything we do is determined by the "threat" of BJJ and MMA. That's nonsense.

By all means, explore every aspect of your chosen system that you find yourself interested in. Do it to better your training, do it because you are interested in it. Don't do it because you think MMA and BJJ tells you that you must.

When I train it's for the better understanding of the fighting system that I train in. MMA and BJJ are just fighting systems that allow me to look at the application of my techniques in a different light. MMA because those guys usually work off multiple fighting systems. BJJ because it's a strong grappling system. I take the same approach with TKD and Muay Tai with their great kicking abilities, Boxing with their fast footwork and head movement. The only reason you don't hear me talking about those systems is because this post is about Grappling.

There are kung fu practitioners who do stances all day long and have not realized how those same stances can be used to help defend against various grappling attempts. The low stances actually open up additional opportunities for grappling and striking. It also moves the waist and hips deeper into the guard. Tall fighting stances limits the distance a person is able to retreat, lower stances increase the distance a person is able to retreat. Without strong legs low stances can't be held for long periods of time and it reduces the mobility. Bow stances and cross stances can be used in executing throws. Even with all of that information that I just touched on, there are practitioners who think that stance training is only good for making the legs strong and that the low stances aren't really used in actual fighting or sparring. This information may be useful to someone who does kung fu; and may give them a different perspective on how to use their kung fu stances in sparring. Those who haven't done fighting or sparring from a low stance isn't going to pick many of these things up unless someone tells them or unless they experience it for themselves.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Sometimes if you don't see a thing, there's a reason.

Not sure what you mean here

 

[Flying Crane]

When I train it's for the better understanding of the fighting system that I train in. MMA and BJJ are just fighting systems that allow me to look at the application of my techniques in a different light. MMA because those guys usually work off multiple fighting systems. BJJ because it's a strong grappling system. I take the same approach with TKD and Muay Tai with their great kicking abilities, Boxing with their fast footwork and head movement. The only reason you don't hear me talking about those systems is because this post is about Grappling.

There are kung fu practitioners who do stances all day long and have not realized how those same stances can be used to help defend against various grappling attempts. The low stances actually open up additional opportunities for grappling and striking. It also moves the waist and hips deeper into the guard. Tall fighting stances limits the distance a person is able to retreat, lower stances increase the distance a person is able to retreat. Without strong legs low stances can't be held for long periods of time and it reduces the mobility. Bow stances and cross stances can be used in executing throws. Even with all of that information that I just touched on, there are practitioners who think that stance training is only good for making the legs strong and that the low stances aren't really used in actual fighting or sparring. This information may be useful to someone who does kung fu; and may give them a different perspective on how to use their kung fu stances in sparring. Those who haven't done fighting or sparring from a low stance isn't going to pick many of these things up unless someone tells them or unless they experience it for themselves.

And again, if you are interested in it, for whatever reason, then do it. You don't need to justify it to me or to anyone else. I only say, don't think you MUST do something just because BJJ or MMA tells you it is so.

 

[Steve]

And again, if you are interested in it, for whatever reason, then do it. You don't need to justify it to me or to anyone else. I only say, don't think you MUST do something just because BJJ or MMA tells you it is so.

I agree in spirit, but don't believe bjj is telling anyone in this thread to do anything in particular.

 

[Flying Crane]

I agree in spirit, but don't believe bjj is telling anyone in this thread to do anything in particular.

I actually agree with you, but there are people who I think do believe it does. "BJJ and MMA are very popular right now, therefor I need to change my training to XYZ in response to the threat that they represent".

I just don't live my life that way.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I actually agree with you, but there are people who I think do believe it does. "BJJ and MMA are very popular right now, therefor I need to change my training to XYZ in response to the threat that they represent".

I just don't live my life that way.

Tackling and throwing people on the ground has always been around it's nothing new. If a person is taking a CMA then there's a high chance that there are grappling techniques in the forms that are done. So you wouldn't be changing your training, instead you'll be gaining a better understanding of you are already doing in the context of grappling. Chin Na (Qinna) is a grappling system that is naturally a part of kung fu. Many Kung Fu practitioners are always practicing or discussing rooted stances in the schools. The "rooting" of a stance also plays a big important part in preventing someone from throwing you. So you aren't changing your training, you are getting a better understanding of things that you are already doing.

In what context do you practice your stances? Do you only practice your stances in the context of building stronger legs? Or do you only practice your stances in the context of punching and kicking? Do you practice your stances in the context of grappling?

Having a better understanding of what you already do and have in your fighting system does not mean you are chaining your training. At the most it will mean understanding what you do in the context of what is being used against you.

Watch the legs and the stances the guy below. You'll see him use the same stances we all practice but they are done in the context of grappling.

 

[Flying Crane]

Tackling and throwing people on the ground has always been around it's nothing new. If a person is taking a CMA then there's a high chance that there are grappling techniques in the forms that are done. So you wouldn't be changing your training, instead you'll be gaining a better understanding of you are already doing in the context of grappling. Chin Na (Qinna) is a grappling system that is naturally a part of kung fu. Many Kung Fu practitioners are always practicing or discussing rooted stances in the schools. The "rooting" of a stance also plays a big important part in preventing someone from throwing you. So you aren't changing your training, you are getting a better understanding of things that you are already doing.

In what context do you practice your stances? Do you only practice your stances in the context of building stronger legs? Or do you only practice your stances in the context of punching and kicking? Do you practice your stances in the context of grappling?

Having a better understanding of what you already do and have in your fighting system does not mean you are chaining your training. At the most it will mean understanding what you do in the context of what is being used against you.

Watch the legs and the stances the guy below. You'll see him use the same stances we all practice but they are done in the context of grappling.

Ohmygawdman! No kidding!!!! Stop preaching to me, this is nothing new and I haven't disagreed with you

 

[clfsean]

Ohmygawdman! No kidding!!!! Stop preaching to me, this is nothing new and I haven't disagreed with you

True story ...

 

[JowGaWolf]

Ohmygawdman! No kidding!!!! Stop preaching to me, this is nothing new and I haven't disagreed with you

I was actually adding to what you stated. I'll try to make it clearer next time. I wrote the comment for others who may think that they have to change their training just be able to deal with grappling, or for those who think that grappling isn't part of their system (which in some cases may be true for some non CMAs). When I used the word "you" it was out of habit of using "you" in a general sense and not directly addressed to you specifically. So I apologize for the confusion I created.

"BJJ and MMA are very popular right now, therefor I need to change my training to XYZ in response to the threat that they represent".

This part of your statement is what I was adding to. I see this happening in schools that teach karate and hapkido where, they actually teach "MMA and BJJ" as part of their Karate or Hapkido curriculum. Granted that it's was probably done for business purposes, there was no need to go that route if their school actually has grappling techniques in it. They change their training because of the popularity of MMA and BJJ. The moment they start practicing MMA and BJJ techniques is the exact moment they stop doing Hapkido.
This is what I thought of when I read your comment about changing training. MMA – Mixed Martial Arts | Choe's HapKiDo

 

[Xue Sheng]

Kickin

A lot of times people think that there is no grappling in Kung Fu so I just wanted to share my Sifu's short post from his blog.

"Authentic Kung Fu should contain all aspects of open hand combat; striking, kicking, wrestling and joint locks"

Kicking/punching, Qinna and Shuaijiao.... all Chinese martial arts styles have all 3 to varying degrees..... end of story....others don't want to believe that...I'm ok with that...it is to my advantage.