take downs

[K831]

And this is exactly what I was talking about in my other post. Its up to the student to figure some things out for themselves as well. A story that I always tell....when I used to have the class do techniques, many times, I'd have everyone make a big circle, give everyone a number, put someone in the middle, and have the others attack as I called the number, much like we saw in Fight Quest, with the Kaju episode.

That Bull ring drill is one of my favorites. It is one of the drills we get the most bloody lips, bloody noses and bruises from haha. In fact, two of my teeth are chipped from a few of us getting over zeoulous in that drill haha.

Mass attack drills are a lot of fun. Have you seen any of the Atienza Kali mass attack youtube clips?

 

[MattJ]

Well, yes, however, the goal and mindset are different.

The goal is different? How do you mean? Everyone wants to survive, yes?

I'm not going to assume that the person standing across from me, is just going to do nothing more than yell at me, try to intimidate me, attack me with fists or with weapons, so yes, in todays world, with the badguy not giving a crap about you, I will look at it as a fight to the death.

OK, although this was clearly not what I addressed.

As for my 'drunken' friends and family....you're assuming that all of my friends and family get plastered at every function. LOL. Couldn't be further from the truth. Personally, its very rare that I drink, and when I do, its not enough to get me drunk. Frankly, I can't stand the taste.

I was most certainly not "assuming" your friends/relatives are drunks. It was just an example. You guys are pretty touchy here. That said, I do not drink, either. Never have.

That being said, its very rare that I put myself in a position in which I'm around a bunch of drunks. As for how I would handle a drunk friend or family member....again, those people are not stumbling, but if someone were to attack me, I would first assess...is this person, this family member, really trying to cause me harm? I would certainly hope not, and IMO, it'd be unlikely, but if it did come to that, I'd address it accordingly.

Something other than deadly force?

Rare that that happens in MMA. There have been a few, IIRC, Gracie vs. Jason Deluca (sp) in which Royce really cranked his arm.

Broken arms and legs do happen. Not quite as rare as you might think. Frank Mir broke Tim Sylvia's arm when Tim wouldn't tap. Razak Al-Hassan also had his arm broken when he wouldn't tap. Shinya Aoki broke Hirota's arm. Cung Le broke Frank Shamrock's arm with a kick! I'm sure everyone remembers Corey Hill's horrific shin break. Lots more if you care to look; broken jaws and orbital bones everywhere. MMA is not pattycake.

So you're advocating going to the ground in a street fight, and looking for a submission? LMAO!! Alrighty then. If thats what YOU want to do, go for it man. Me...if I end up there, I'll do my best to get back to my feet. If, and only if, a sub. presents itself, I might take advantage of it, but if you think I'm going to intentionally look for one, you're crazy.

*sigh*

Another inaccurate assumption. I'm really trying to understand all the hostility here. Is it just the mere mention of BJJ/MMA that causes knives to be drawn? I think I have been reasonable. I mean, I'm a kenpo guy, too, but I don't get all bent out of shape if someone were to say that *gasp* kenpo is not complete and/or could learn something from the MMA paradigm.

Disappointing that you are also trying to strawman me here - your post count and position here would have me believe that you would be past that kind of thing. Feel free to actually *read* my posts - instead of making incorrect assumptions - and you will see that is not what I practice for. My point was that those things are practiced "for real" in class, and could be done the same way on the street. Can't say that for eye gouges or throat shots, can we? And what do you do if someone else puts YOU on the ground? I find it odd that so many people assume that they can reliably put someone else on the ground, and never consider that same strategy may be employed upon themselves.

Seems pretty shortsighted to me, but what do I know! You guys are apparently the experts.

 

[K831]

Another inaccurate assumption. I'm really trying to understand all the hostility here. Is it just the mere mention of BJJ/MMA that causes knives to be drawn?

It has nothing to do with mentioning BJJ/MMA, it has to do with the fact that we have answered all your questions, given examples, personal experiences, training methodologies and on and on, and its as if you have forgotten the first ten posts.

You don't like someones answer, explanation or questions, you default to naming your favorite logical fallacy or something near to a personal jab.

Ex:

Disappointing that you are also trying to strawman me here - your post count and position here would have me believe that you would be past that kind of thing. Feel free to actually *read* my posts - instead of making incorrect assumptions

My point was that those things are practiced "for real" in class, and could be done the same way on the street. Can't say that for eye gouges or throat shots, can we? And what do you do if someone else puts YOU on the ground? I find it odd that so many people assume that they can reliably put someone else on the ground, and never consider that same strategy may be employed upon themselves.

Seems pretty shortsighted to me, but what do I know! You guys are apparently the experts.

Seriously though, the last bit quoted above is a perfect example of how difficult you are being. I have (and so has MJS) explained in several posts that I take seriously the possibility of someone putting me on the ground, or ending up there via slipping etc etc.. This started with me giving you and example of an all day Krav seminar I attended called "what to do if you end up on the gound with a BJJ player"... I have mentioned that I train with a catch wrestler, MJS has mentioned the training he has done on the ground, both of us have made it clear that we look to strike from the ground and work back to our feet, not hunt for submissions. You have discussed this with us, then 5 posts later, you go back to saying;

And what do you do if someone else puts YOU on the ground? I find it odd that so many people assume that they can reliably put someone else on the ground, and never consider that same strategy may be employed upon themselves.

WHAT??


It was my intention to make my previous post my last, however, I am just baffled that you are trying to keep this going in circles.

I get it, you train BJJ and want to defend it. I honestly wish you the best of luck with it.

Ok, now I really am making my exit.

 

[MattJ]

You don't like someones answer, explanation or questions, you default to naming your favorite logical fallacy or something near to a personal jab.

You mean like inferring someone is a "nutrider" or a "fanboy" or that someone is "crazy" or that someone couldn't possibly have similar training and experience? You mean like that? Well, if those don't count, I guess you're right. I don't think it's improper or impolite to correct someone else's factually inaccurate assumptions. My apologies.

Seriously though, the last bit quoted above is a perfect example of how difficult you are being. I have (and so has MJS) explained in several posts that I take seriously the possibility of someone putting me on the ground, or ending up there via slipping etc etc.. This started with me giving you and example of an all day Krav seminar I attended called "what to do if you end up on the gound with a BJJ player"... I have mentioned that I train with a catch wrestler, MJS has mentioned the training he has done on the ground, both of us have made it clear that we look to strike from the ground and work back to our feet, not hunt for submissions. You have discussed this with us, then 5 posts later, you go back to saying

Yes, unfortunately, I have had to repeat and clarify several times because of strawman arguments being made against me (ie; that I think MMA is the same as a streefight; that I have no training in foul techniques, that I would seek to use submissions as a primary strategy in a real fight, etc). You guys seem to be taking my prescence here as some kind of of TMA vs MMA dig, when I have repeatedly advocated for both. I gave a detailed, on-topic answer to the original question, and have offered reasonable replies to everything else. I have asked questions and gotten no reply. Not sure what you guys want. *shrug*

 

[MJS]

That Bull ring drill is one of my favorites. It is one of the drills we get the most bloody lips, bloody noses and bruises from haha. In fact, two of my teeth are chipped from a few of us getting over zeoulous in that drill haha.

Mass attack drills are a lot of fun. Have you seen any of the Atienza Kali mass attack youtube clips?

Haven't seen any of those clips, but I'll check them out.

 

[MJS]

The goal is different? How do you mean? Everyone wants to survive, yes?

Whats the worst thing thats going to happen when someone loses the MMA fight? How many times have you seen these grown men, come close to breaking down in tears in the ring? Difference is, is that if they lose, they lose no more than their ego. You lose when someone is trying to rob or rape you, and it could be your life.

OK, although this was clearly not what I addressed.

Clarify then please if I misunderstood.

I was most certainly not "assuming" your friends/relatives are drunks. It was just an example. You guys are pretty touchy here. That said, I do not drink, either. Never have.

LOL, I'm not touchy.

Something other than deadly force?

Did you read what I said? In my lifetime, I've never been in a physical confrontation with any family members, nor friends. As I said, if it came to that, I'd address it accordingly. Keep in mind, the guy trying to mug me, isn't going to think twice about killing me. The drunk family member...well, they're drunk right? Not likely that sober, they'd try to kill me. So, seeing that you're a) looking for specifics, and b) probably trying to set me up for your own purposes....I'd address it accordingly, just like I'd address accordingly, the guy trying to rob my house, attack me, mug me, etc.

Broken arms and legs do happen. Not quite as rare as you might think. Frank Mir broke Tim Sylvia's arm when Tim wouldn't tap. Razak Al-Hassan also had his arm broken when he wouldn't tap. Shinya Aoki broke Hirota's arm. Cung Le broke Frank Shamrock's arm with a kick! I'm sure everyone remembers Corey Hill's horrific shin break. Lots more if you care to look; broken jaws and orbital bones everywhere. MMA is not pattycake.

And in todays UFC events, fighter safety is #1. How many times have we seen people complain because they felt fights got stopped too early? Happens all the time. I said its rare, not that it never happens. And I never said MMA was pattycake, however, its not the deciding factor on ring vs. street fighting either.

*sigh*

Another inaccurate assumption. I'm really trying to understand all the hostility here. Is it just the mere mention of BJJ/MMA that causes knives to be drawn? I think I have been reasonable. I mean, I'm a kenpo guy, too, but I don't get all bent out of shape if someone were to say that *gasp* kenpo is not complete and/or could learn something from the MMA paradigm.

Disappointing that you are also trying to strawman me here - your post count and position here would have me believe that you would be past that kind of thing. Feel free to actually *read* my posts - instead of making incorrect assumptions - and you will see that is not what I practice for. My point was that those things are practiced "for real" in class, and could be done the same way on the street. Can't say that for eye gouges or throat shots, can we? And what do you do if someone else puts YOU on the ground? I find it odd that so many people assume that they can reliably put someone else on the ground, and never consider that same strategy may be employed upon themselves.

Seems pretty shortsighted to me, but what do I know! You guys are apparently the experts.

Bro, I'm not the only one reading your posts. I think its safe for me to say that K831 is reading them the same way. Do you really want me to go back and copy/paste your posts, to show you what you're saying? I think its you thats not reading. You're making it seem like I said I'd never end up on the ground. Please, show me where I said that! Here is what I said...

"Me...if I end up there, I'll do my best to get back to my feet. If, and only if, a sub. presents itself, I might take advantage of it, but if you think I'm going to intentionally look for one, you're crazy."

So, show me...where did I assume anything?? I think my post was pretty clear, but it seems that you're trying to twist whats being said, to suit yourself.

Here is what you said:

"See, here I reading a bit of condescension with the "sport training". The takedowns and submissions in grappling are as real in class as they would be on the street. Limited as they are, they are real in their scope, something that cannot be said for eyegouges, for instance. At least not in any EPAK school I have been to, LOL!"

This reads to me, that you advocate the idea of going to the ground. You said the takedowns and subs are as real in class as they would be on the street. And you'd be surprised as to how easy it is to fit in the dirty shots. Problem is, the guys that dont train it as often or at all for that matter, won't be thinking about it. I can't speak for how you train, but I can for how I train. I have no issue fitting those things in, and from what I've read from K831, neither does he.

Additionally, regarding this comment from you:


"Another inaccurate assumption. I'm really trying to understand all the hostility here. Is it just the mere mention of BJJ/MMA that causes knives to be drawn? I think I have been reasonable. I mean, I'm a kenpo guy, too, but I don't get all bent out of shape if someone were to say that *gasp* kenpo is not complete and/or could learn something from the MMA paradigm."

Bro, obviously you havent read many of my posts, past and present, because if you had, you'd see, that I'm a big advocate of saying that there are things in Kenpo that need to be improved upon. Do I need to find those posts for you? I've also said many times, that both the TMAs and MMA can benefit from each other. I've said it many, many times. If you've missed it, oh well, dont know what to tell ya, other than to search my posts, and see for yourself. I've added in many MMA related things to my personal training. I cross train in other arts besides Kenpo, to further round out my skill set. Difference between me and the MMA ground worshippers, is that I dont swing from the nuts of the Gracies or other MMA heros. Those guys eat, sleep, breath and **** Gracie and grappling, as if its the best thing since sliced bread. I dont. They dont see the weak spots, I do.

 

[MJS]

You mean like inferring someone is a "nutrider" or a "fanboy" or that someone is "crazy" or that someone couldn't possibly have similar training and experience? You mean like that? Well, if those don't count, I guess you're right. I don't think it's improper or impolite to correct someone else's factually inaccurate assumptions. My apologies.

Hmm...IIRC, I dont believe I came out and called YOU Matt, a nutrider, did I? I believe the first time I used the term, you asked me if I was calling you one, and I stated no. Then again, why are you taking so much offense to the term? If you're not one, then you have nothing to worry about, do you?

Yes, unfortunately, I have had to repeat and clarify several times because of strawman arguments being made against me (ie; that I think MMA is the same as a streefight; that I have no training in foul techniques, that I would seek to use submissions as a primary strategy in a real fight, etc). You guys seem to be taking my prescence here as some kind of of TMA vs MMA dig, when I have repeatedly advocated for both. I gave a detailed, on-topic answer to the original question, and have offered reasonable replies to everything else. I have asked questions and gotten no reply. Not sure what you guys want. *shrug*

Perhaps its the way your posts are coming across. It may not seem like it to you, but apparently there're 2 people here who are thinking differently. We've gone back and pointed posts out....is this something we have to keep doing? I think that I've been pretty clear in my posts as well, but again, if you're reading them differently, I can't control that. This is a forum, where many times, intent is lost in translation. We're reading words, trying to get the point that the other person is trying to make. I'm sure, were we all face to face, our intent would be better understood, as we could now hear the words, rather than see them.

 

[MattJ]

MJS -

Whats the worst thing thats going to happen when someone loses the MMA fight? How many times have you seen these grown men, come close to breaking down in tears in the ring? Difference is, is that if they lose, they lose no more than their ego. You lose when someone is trying to rob or rape you, and it could be your life.

Already addressed this in terms of broken bones, etc. More than just ego, sir.

Clarify then please if I misunderstood.

I mentioned drunks, with the implication that they appeared to be non-life-threatening (friends, relatives, associates, etc). You jumped into armed attackers and assault scenarios, which I took as a strawman.

Bro, I'm not the only one reading your posts. I think its safe for me to say that K831 is reading them the same way. Do you really want me to go back and copy/paste your posts, to show you what you're saying?

Feel free, as I have been quite specific, like above. I have also apologized if I thought I was wrong.

I do understand that both you and K831 are good with cross-training, we all seem to agree with that.

This reads to me, that you advocate the idea of going to the ground. You said the takedowns and subs are as real in class as they would be on the street. And you'd be surprised as to how easy it is to fit in the dirty shots. Problem is, the guys that dont train it as often or at all for that matter, won't be thinking about it. I can't speak for how you train, but I can for how I train. I have no issue fitting those things in, and from what I've read from K831, neither does he.

See, here's where it starts to break down. You are strawman-ing me again here. Here's my quote from earlier in the thread:

"I personally think that BJJ is great to keep me from going to the ground, or getting to a better position from the ground in order to use my kenpo striking. But that's just me"

So, I am not necessarily advocating going to the ground willy-nilly. It would depend entirely on the situation, much like your ability to "address it accordingly" in the case of drunks, correct? And FWIW, we spent a good bit of last night's class working hairgrabs in particular. It worked once for me getting a gogoplata, and another time I got armbarred for my trouble, LOL.

Difference between me and the MMA ground worshippers, is that I dont swing from the nuts of the Gracies or other MMA heros. Those guys eat, sleep, breath and **** Gracie and grappling, as if its the best thing since sliced bread. I dont. They dont see the weak spots, I do.

Once again, why are you bringing this up with me? This comment is irrelavent and seems personal, despite your denials. Nothing in my comments would fit any of those descriptions.

This is a forum, where many times, intent is lost in translation. We're reading words, trying to get the point that the other person is trying to make. I'm sure, were we all face to face, our intent would be better understood, as we could now hear the words, rather than see them.

I would think so, too. We actually seem much closer in thought than these words would appear. Cheers.

 

[MJS]

MJS -



Already addressed this in terms of broken bones, etc. More than just ego, sir.

And as I said sir, its rare that it happens. Again, NOT saying it doesn't but you're making it sound like it happens all the time, when in fact it does not.

I mentioned drunks, with the implication that they appeared to be non-life-threatening (friends, relatives, associates, etc). You jumped into armed attackers and assault scenarios, which I took as a strawman.

You mentioned that AFTER is said that I view a street fight as a life and death situation. POst 49 had me saying that, post 50 had you asking if I'd view it in the same way if it was a drunk family member or friend.

Feel free, as I have been quite specific, like above. I have also apologized if I thought I was wrong.

Didn't you see that I already gave 1 example in my last post? Either you missed it accidentally or on purpose.

I do understand that both you and K831 are good with cross-training, we all seem to agree with that.

We're making progress...we're agreeing on something.

See, here's where it starts to break down. You are strawman-ing me again here. Here's my quote from earlier in the thread:



So, I am not necessarily advocating going to the ground willy-nilly. It would depend entirely on the situation, much like your ability to "address it accordingly" in the case of drunks, correct? And FWIW, we spent a good bit of last night's class working hairgrabs in particular. It worked once for me getting a gogoplata, and another time I got armbarred for my trouble, LOL.

So, its not ok for me to strawman you, but fine for you to do it? Look at this quote from you:

*sigh*

Another inaccurate assumption. I'm really trying to understand all the hostility here. Is it just the mere mention of BJJ/MMA that causes knives to be drawn? I think I have been reasonable. I mean, I'm a kenpo guy, too, but I don't get all bent out of shape if someone were to say that *gasp* kenpo is not complete and/or could learn something from the MMA paradigm.

Disappointing that you are also trying to strawman me here - your post count and position here would have me believe that you would be past that kind of thing. Feel free to actually *read* my posts - instead of making incorrect assumptions - and you will see that is not what I practice for. My point was that those things are practiced "for real" in class, and could be done the same way on the street. Can't say that for eye gouges or throat shots, can we? And what do you do if someone else puts YOU on the ground? I find it odd that so many people assume that they can reliably put someone else on the ground, and never consider that same strategy may be employed upon themselves.

Take note of the bold/underlined part. You ask this question, clearly after I explained my thoughts here:

"So you're advocating going to the ground in a street fight, and looking for a submission? LMAO!! Alrighty then. If thats what YOU want to do, go for it man. Me...if I end up there, I'll do my best to get back to my feet. If, and only if, a sub. presents itself, I might take advantage of it, but if you think I'm going to intentionally look for one, you're crazy."

Once again, why are you bringing this up with me? This comment is irrelavent and seems personal, despite your denials. Nothing in my comments would fit any of those descriptions.

Ok.

I would think so, too. We actually seem much closer in thought than these words would appear. Cheers.

I extended the offer to K831, and I'll do the same for you. If you ever find yourself in the CT. area, let me know. It'd be great to meet up and do some training.

 

[K831]

I extended the offer to K831, and I'll do the same for you. If you ever find yourself in the CT. area, let me know. It'd be great to meet up and do some training.

I sense a lot of eye gouging in the future!

 

[MattJ]

You mentioned that AFTER is said that I view a street fight as a life and death situation. POst 49 had me saying that, post 50 had you asking if I'd view it in the same way if it was a drunk family member or friend.

Yes, exactly - AFTER you had mentioned the life/death thing. I was referring to a different scenario. It's not fair for me to ask about drunks, but it's fair for other points to be made to me about curbs and broken glass (because every single fight happens outside in a bad neighborhood, of course). Some might see a double-standard there.

Anyway, I see we are locked in a "But You.....!!!" kind of thing here. I guess we can assume that all relevant points have been made, LOL.

I extended the offer to K831, and I'll do the same for you. If you ever find yourself in the CT. area, let me know. It'd be great to meet up and do some training.

I appreciate the offer! Cheers.

 

[MJS]

Yes, exactly - AFTER you had mentioned the life/death thing. I was referring to a different scenario. It's not fair for me to ask about drunks, but it's fair for other points to be made to me about curbs and broken glass (because every single fight happens outside in a bad neighborhood, of course). Some might see a double-standard there.

I believe I gave an answer about the friends/family as well. You're free to ask about whatever you'd like. I'll answer to the best of my ability. I simply wanted to clarify, as it seemed that (again, this is just the impression that I got from your post) you were thinking that I would do the same to a family member, as I would to a total stranger, who was trying to attack me. Of course, as I said, the family member, being under the influence of something, under normal circumstances, would not attack me.

Anyway, I see we are locked in a "But You.....!!!" kind of thing here. I guess we can assume that all relevant points have been made, LOL.

Most likely.

I appreciate the offer! Cheers.

 

[MJS]

I sense a lot of eye gouging in the future!

LMAO!!! I gotta see if Bob can get an eye gouge icon.

 

[LawDog]

When I crossed trained in EPAK during the 80's into the 90's the system used what is known as "impact" jujitsu techniques. I know that Mr. Parker did not like to fall or to be on the ground,(at least that is what he told us).