Take down not used in UFC

[Yokozuna514]

Watch? I train at an MMA gym 3 times a week. I don't need to turn on a TV to see what works in sparring/competition.

As it turns out though you see it a lot if you just watch it too.

As you do neither of these things I can't help but wonder why you are even arguing.

Actually, I am not arguing with you or anyone else in this forum. You feel one way and I feel another. You may feel as if you training in an MMA gym 3 times a week gives your opinion more weight. That is fine with me. I simply said I do not watch EVERY MMA match so I could not even begin to say if this technique is prevalent or not. I can say, from what I have seen which is probably more than the typical person, I have not seen it used very much. I have also never seen it used the way it was demonstrated in the first video as it seemed to me that the opponent was too compliant and that doesn't happen in real matches.

So, I offer a point of view that is contrary to yours and maybe to some others as well. It doesn't bother me that you don't agree with me. Not sure why it bothers you. In my experience, solutions do not always have to be mutually exclusive of each other. Meaning, we can both be right or we can both be wrong (and everything in between) because it is simply not possible to account for everything you have seen, I have seen and what has actually occurred to determine who is in fact correct.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This is common in TMAs. Show the technique but never show or even talk about the ways someone can set it up. If you want to find out the limits of someone's application knowledge simply ask them how to set it up.

If you get a Judo book, that Judo book won't tell you how to set up those throws. It all starts from the "clinch" position.

The "knee seize" is used very often in Chinese wrestling. In Sanda, you can use the preying mantis "Mou Pan Shou" (wrist, elbow, neck) to set it up:

- Right hand pull your opponent's guard down (wrist).
- Left hand push on his elbow joint (elbow).
- Right hand push his neck (neck).
- Left hand grab his leg.

On wrestling mat, you can set it up by pulling your opponent around.

You can also set it up when you break apart your opponent's grips. When your opponent pays attention on your hands, he forgets about his leg.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If you get a Judo book, that Judo book won't tell you how to set up those throws. It all starts from the "clinch" position.

The "knee seize" is used very often in Chinese wrestling. In Sanda, you can use the preying mantis "Mou Pan Shou" (wrist, elbow, neck) to set it up:

- Right hand pull your opponent's guard down (wrist).
- Left hand push on his elbow joint (elbow).
- Right hand push his neck (neck).
- Left hand grab his leg.

On wrestling mat, you can set it up by pulling your opponent around.

You can also set it up when you break apart your opponent's grips. When your opponent pays attention on your hands, he forgets about his leg.

The one thing I've been doing lately is documenting examples of how to set up the techniques and what to look for.

 

[lklawson]

If you get a Judo book, that Judo book won't tell you how to set up those throws. It all starts from the "clinch" position.

you have been reading the wrong Judo books. While there are certainly a lot of Judo books that only focus on the very basics, there are also a lot that talk about setups, footwork, and combinations. Right now at my dojo I have a set of sheets pasted to the wall which includes a matrix of set ups, counters, and combinations.

Peace favor your sword (mobile)

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The one thing I've been doing lately is documenting examples of how to set up the techniques and what to look for.

That was what I had concentrated in the past 10 years, the "entering strategy".

My main approach are:

- Use my leading leg to jam my opponent's leading leg so he can't kick/knee me.
- Guide my opponent's leading arm to jam his own back arm so his hands can't punch/elbow me.
- Line up my back foot with both of my opponent's feet so I can stay away from his back hand.
- Wrap my opponent's arms ASAP so I can change the striking game into the throwing game.
- Use "rhino guard" to separate my opponent's arms upward.
- Use "double spears" to separate my opponent's arms downward.
- ...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

you have been reading the wrong Judo books. While there are certainly a lot of Judo books that only focus on the very basics, there are also a lot that talk about setups, footwork, and combinations. Right now at my dojo I have a set of sheets pasted to the wall which includes a matrix of set ups, counters, and combinations.

Peace favor your sword (mobile)

Most of my Judo book were published before 1970. Not much "entering strategy" are shown in those books. Even the online clip. Not much entering strategy is shown either.

It will be nice if all throws can have set up associated with it in striking environment.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That was what I had concentrated in the past 10 years, the "entering strategy".

My main approach are:

- Use my leading leg to jam my opponent's leading leg so he can't kick/knee me.
- Guide opponent's leading arm to jam his own back arm so his hands can't punch/elbow me.
- Line up my back foot with both of my opponent's feet so I can stay away from his back hand.
- Wrap my opponent's arms ASAP so I can change the striking game into the throwing game.
- Use "rhino guard" to separate my opponent's arms upward.
- Use "double spears" to separate my opponent's arms downward.
- ...

Looks like I'm 10 years behind you. Having a technique and not knowing how to set it up was always a big frustration to me. Everything was taught. "If this person, punches, if this person grabs, if this person kicks." Everything was defense and it was like I had to always wait for the freaking punch to come before I could do anything. It didn't take long to learn through trial and error that waiting for a punch is a bad thing. It's better to trigger your opponent's attack than to try to guess where and how his attack going to be executed. I couldn't do any of the techniques during that time and I saw TMA pretty much like Hanzou sees it. I'm just glad I went back for a second try and got out of Karate and into a practical kung fu system. Back then my parents didn't know enough about martial arts to get me into a school that had what I was really looking for.

I took a loot at your list and it looks like we have a similar approach. With the exception of the trying to change the striking game into a throwing game. But everything else runs similar to how I think.. This one is a big one for me. "- Line up my back foot with both of my opponent's feet so I can stay away from his back hand." I do stuff like this all the time to take away my opponents options. Where you do to reduce the punch. I do the same to reduce the kick. from the back. I always know when my opponent wants to kick before he actually kicks because he will try to re-position himself so that he can make use of that back leg. This is why I like the heel kick from the front leg vs the heel kick from the back.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Having a technique and not knowing how to set it up was always a big frustration to me.

- When you are trying to develop your "finish moves", you may not too concern about your "entering strategy".
- After you have developed your "finish moves", you can then concentrate on developing your "entering strategies".

If you

- always attack first when your opponent has boxing guard, your option is finite.
- wait for your opponent to attack first, your option may be infinitive.

This is why I don't use the self-defense approach. If my opponent attacks first, I'll jump back and then attack back. I want my opponent to respond to my attack. I don't like to respond to my opponent's attack. I want my opponent to paly my game. I don't want to play my opponent's game.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If you

- always attack first when your opponent has boxing guard, your option is finite.
- wait for your opponent to attack first, your option may be infinitive.

I think you got it backwards there . But I know what you mean
-always attack first when your opponent has boxing guard, your options are unlimited.
-wait for your opponent to attack first, your option will be limited.

The only benefit for not attacking for is either to gather info on your opponent or to set up a counter. And counters are more about triggering the attack that you vs waiting for a random attack.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

-always attack first when your opponent has boxing guard, your options are unlimited.
-wait for your opponent to attack first, your option will be limited.

When I attack first, I will always try to set it up for my "favor finish moves". My "favor finish moves" are limited,

My opponent's attack can be a flying side kick, a flying knee, a jumping spinning turning back kick, a leg shooting, a punch to my head, ... it's just too complicate.

 

[JowGaWolf]

When I attack first, I will always try to set it up for my "favor finish moves". My "favor finish moves" are limited,

My opponent's attack can be a flying side kick, a flying knee, a jumping spinning turning back kick, a leg shooting, a punch to my head, ... it's just too complicate.

For me when I attack I try to keep my opponent guessing what is coming next. The more concerned my opponent is about being hit, the less my opponent is thinking about hitting me.