Taekwondo club governance and affiliations vs independance

[andyjeffries]

So you don't first have to register a school with the KKW? So long as the BB is 4th dan, he is good to go? For example, could you be a 4th dan at a club that is not yours (i.e., you are not the owner/master/GM), and promote others to 1st dan that are not at the club you attend? If so, what would you put in the "dojang" box?

You have to register a club/school/dojang with the KKW when you join KMS (Kukkiwon Membership System - http://kms.kukkiwon.or.kr/usr/main.do). However, there is no checking that the club exists, so you could register with KKW using "Gwai Lo Dan Taekwondo" and get a KMS login. Then you could promote people to up to 3rd Dan (in your situation where someone was a 4th Dan).

That's the current state of play.

The proposed state is that you would need to be an examiner, and on an honour-based system only promote your own students (to up to one rank below yourself). If you wanted to promote someone else's student, you'd need to convene a panel and the class of the examiners on the panel would need to be high enough for the rank you want to promote them to (I think this was 3rd Class can do up to 3rd Dan, 2nd Class can do up to 5th Dan, 1st Class up to 7th Dan).

 

[andyjeffries]

To be eligible to recommend your students for Kukkiwon poom/dan promotion you have to be a 4th dan at the minimum and in addition be registered as an individual member of the Kukkiwon Membership System (KMS). When applying for KMS membership an instructor must also provide the Kukkiwon with a copy of a state/local government business (dojang) registration and address. If you operate a club within an organization like the YMCA, you have to provide the Kukkiwon with a copy of an approval letter to operate the club, issued by that organization. Mind you all that only applies to so called Category 1 countries like the U.S and some Europeans countries.

I don't remember ever having to supply any of that?! It was a single form faxed over to Kukkiwon giving the club details, no government paperwork or letters required. Maybe it's different in the US.

 

[TrueJim]

As far as I know though, the new policy isn't law yet (for want of a better way of phrasing it). The course has been delivered a few times, some people are qualified, but as far as I know it's not a requirement at this point in time.

1. I agree; I haven't heard of any examples of the March 2016 dan policy being enforced....and here it is November! One would think the Kukkiwon would feel obliged to say SOMETHING about the status of the policy, wouldn't one?

It's a bit of a slap in the face for masters who did bother to travel and take the course, at not inconsiderable expense! The course my kwanjangnim attended here in the US was basically just a grueling review of poomsae, which he really didn't need (he's a Kukkiwon 7th dan and was one of the earliest K-Tigers...he knows his poomsae.)

2. Here in the US, the Kukkiwon representative is "Kukkiwon America" (affiliated with the World Taekwondo Masters Union, WTMU). I don't see any new Examiner's Courses scheduled on their website. Kukkiwon America WTMU, the official MOU organization with Kukkiwon They too seem to have gone silent on this.

3. Meanwhile USA Taekwondo (USAT) delegated their new dan promotion responsibilities to the US Taekwondo Grandmasters Society (USTGS), with the promise that there would be more news forthcoming about dan promotion events sponsored by the USTGS. And we haven't heard a peep out of them either! Home

 

[Archtkd]

The March 2016 policy requiring 4dan+ to take the Examiner's Course if they want to promote past 2nd dan. The one described here: Kukkiwon Promotion Rules (2015-2016)

Like I said, it relies on an "honor system" to enforce the idea that you won't by yourself promote somebody from another club or school (you'll only promote your own students). But if somebody was already dishonest enough to take money in exchange for promoting somebody who hadn't earned it, then why won't that same person also be dishonest enough to lie about somebody being their student in the first place? To me it doesn't seem like the new policy actually solves anything.

P.S. It was previously discussed here: Kukkiwon Promotion Rules changes

Truejim: I am sure you know that was a proposal that failed, but can't figure out why you keep insisting it is a policy that exists. It was a proposal engineered or pushed foward by a handful of grandmasters in the U.S, Americas and Europe, who thought they could create centralized Kukkiwon affiliated entities to control the issuance of Kukkiwon poom/dan certification in select countries and profit from the same. The bulk of senior grandmasters/dojang operators and Kukki taekwondo orgs in the U.S and UK rejected the flawed proposal and the Kukkiwon dumped it. And that is not the first or last Kukkiwon proposal to fail. There have been several ideas that the Kukkiwon -- under influence of GMs in the West -- has come up with over the years and then quitely withdrawn following wide external and internal dissent or leadership changes at the organization.

 

[Archtkd]

I don't remember ever having to supply any of that?! It was a single form faxed over to Kukkiwon giving the club details, no government paperwork or letters required. Maybe it's different in the US.

It's a policy that's been around since March 2015. I didn't have to go through it -- even though I met all requirements -- because I was in the first batch of KMS applicants back in 2009. See this Kukkiwom notice:

• In order to be approval KMS Membership
• • 2015/03/25 17:34:1

As you have done KMS application, there are some required documents to approve your membership as follows;

1. Copy of Business license (If you can’t due to teach in School, Sports complex etc. it would be replaced with an approval letter from your government or municipal to let you teach in certain place.)

(It must includes your Dojang name, address, and your name)

2. Copy of your ID( driver's license and Kukkiwon Certificate)

3. Send it to the person who in charge

Pan America and Oceania: [email protected]

Asia, Europe, Africa : [email protected]

K.M.S Unifying the world with Taekwondo We are the KUKKIWON family

 

[andyjeffries]

It's a policy that's been around since March 2015. I didn't have to go through it -- even though I met all requirements -- because I was in the first batch of KMS applicants back in 2009. See this Kukkiwom notice

Thanks for the info mate. I was approved sometime between you and the new policy (in the middle maybe, around 2012?).

 

[Dirty Dog]

It's a policy that's been around since March 2015. I didn't have to go through it -- even though I met all requirements -- because I was in the first batch of KMS applicants back in 2009. See this Kukkiwom notice:

Seems like this would pretty much rule out an awful lot of non-commercial schools. The classic garage dojang, for example.

 

[WaterGal]

It's a policy that's been around since March 2015. I didn't have to go through it -- even though I met all requirements -- because I was in the first batch of KMS applicants back in 2009. See this Kukkiwom notice:

• In order to be approval KMS Membership
• • 2015/03/25 17:34:1

As you have done KMS application, there are some required documents to approve your membership as follows;

1. Copy of Business license (If you can’t due to teach in School, Sports complex etc. it would be replaced with an approval letter from your government or municipal to let you teach in certain place.)

(It must includes your Dojang name, address, and your name)

2. Copy of your ID( driver's license and Kukkiwon Certificate)

3. Send it to the person who in charge

Pan America and Oceania: [email protected]

Asia, Europe, Africa : [email protected]

K.M.S Unifying the world with Taekwondo We are the KUKKIWON family

We had to do that in 2014, though I think it must have been a brand-new requirement at the time, because we registered on the KKW website, heard nothing from them for at least a month, and then contacted KKW a couple times before finally getting told that we had to e-mail them the business license to the first e-mail listed above. At which point they sent us our KMS login credentials in a plaintext e-mail. SMH.

 

[WaterGal]

Seems like this would pretty much rule out an awful lot of non-commercial schools. The classic garage dojang, for example.

Someone operating as a sole proprietor might have a hard time, yeah. I wonder if they'd accept a certificate of liability insurance instead?

 

[Leo89]

What if someone wanted to make their own organization and teach a new style of TKD?

I assume mastering a previous style would be part of the first step.

 

[Dirty Dog]

What if someone wanted to make their own organization and teach a new style of TKD?

Gosh, that's never happened...

I assume mastering a previous style would be part of the first step.

You'd like to think so, but no. An awful lot of orgs have been started by people with low rank and limited knowledge/understanding of their source art.

 

[Balrog]

Over the years I've seen a number of ATA folks make a distinction between "franchise" and "independently owned and operated". I don't think there's a difference? but I could very well be mistaken!

I'm not intending this analogy to be pejorative: most McDonalds restaurants are also independently owned and operated. Most McDonalds restaurants do not belong to the McDonalds corporation at all. The owner pays McDonalds a fee to use the brand name, they buy their ingredients from the parent corporation, and they cook the food according to McDonalds guidelines...but the store itself is owned and operated by an individual. A lot of times you can see a plaque beside the cash registers with the name of the owner of that restaurant.

I think? the word franchise means that a business is independently owned and operated, but pays a fee to the parent corporation to use the brand and associated materials....which is what ATA does, I think?

What's the difference between "franchise" and "independently owned and operated" ? Why are ATA schools not "franchises" ? I'd sincerely like to understand the distinction.

The predominate difference is that, although we are all licensed to teach Songahm Taekwondo, we teach it in different ways. Some do straight curriculum, some do rotating block, some only teach a subset of the weapons, some include XMA, some include Krav Maga or Jiu-Jitsu, etc. In addition, our schools follow a common style, but they are not identical. We'll all have flags on the wall, we'll mostly have either a red/black or red/white/blue trend, etc. If we were franchises, we would be cookie-cutter schools.

To use the MacDonald's analogy, every MacDonald's looks the same everywhere. The food is the same, etc, Or to use another analogy: we're not identical twins, we're fraternal twins.

 

[TrueJim]

We are licensed to teach Songahm Taekwondo, which is copyrighted...

I've always found this interesting. My best guess is that Songahm poomsae fall under US copyright law in the same way that dance choreography does:

How to Copyright Choreography

• "Note that copyrighting your choreography will not prohibit others from performing the dance under the fair use principle. Fair use allows for limited personal and educational use, so that people may perform your dance in their own homes and in other arenas covered by limited personal and educational use. However, if you copyright your choreography, others cannot sell the dance or claim it as their own creation."

So for example on the wiki, if I'm reading that right, I could write my own description of the Songahm poomsae (in my own words, not copying the ATA PDFs verbatim of course) and that would likely be considered fair use. I've never put this to the test (it would be a lot of work to rewrite the PDFs in my own words, and to what end anyway?) but I think the idea of copyrighted poomsae raises a lot of interesting questions. Like...could a college club teach Songahm poomsae as long as it was for free? Could a person make (non-monetized) YouTube videos of Songahm poomsae?

 

[Balrog]

I've always found this interesting. My best guess is that Songahm poomsae fall under US copyright law in the same way that dance choreography does:

How to Copyright Choreography

• "Note that copyrighting your choreography will not prohibit others from performing the dance under the fair use principle. Fair use allows for limited personal and educational use, so that people may perform your dance in their own homes and in other arenas covered by limited personal and educational use. However, if you copyright your choreography, others cannot sell the dance or claim it as their own creation."

So for example on the wiki, if I'm reading that right, I could write my own description of the Songahm poomsae (in my own words, not copying the ATA PDFs verbatim of course) and that would likely be considered fair use. I've never put this to the test (it would be a lot of work to rewrite the PDFs in my own words, and to what end anyway?) but I think the idea of copyrighted poomsae raises a lot of interesting questions. Like...could a college club teach Songahm poomsae as long as it was for free? Could a person make (non-monetized) YouTube videos of Songahm poomsae?

I'm not an expert on copyright law, but I do know that in the past, ATA has successfully defended its copyright under a variety of circumstances. I don't think that they have to do it quite so much these days.

 

[TrueJim]

I'm not an expert on copyright law, but I do know that in the past, ATA has successfully defended its copyright under a variety of circumstances...

I suspect that those were cases where for-profit organizations were teaching Songahm taekwondo, in which case the doctrine of Fair Use wouldn't apply. For example if I were an ex-ATA instructor, I couldn't go out and start my own school teaching ATA taekwondo but skip the licensing deal from ATA.

In the US, Fair Use basically says that small excerpts for educational purposes that aren't primarily profit oriented and don't significantly impact the profit of the author are generally okay. So for example the Harry Potter books are copyrighted, but you can still make a free-to-use wiki about Harry Potter. Harry Potter On the other hand, if you started charging money for access to the Harry Potter wiki, Fair Use probably wouldn't apply and J.K. Rowling would have you shut down. That's why the wikia collection of websites can get away with having content about everything from Harry Potter to Minecraft to Pokemon without being sued into oblivion.

It's kinda funny if you think about it: an instructor can become very expert at ATA taekwondo, but he can't ever teaching it to anybody without permission (i.e., a license) from ATA. I would think that would be a weird feeling. Like...learning math or biology, but not being allowed to teach it to anybody without getting permission first.

 

[Balrog]

I suspect that those were cases where for-profit organizations were teaching Songahm taekwondo, in which case the doctrine of Fair Use wouldn't apply. For example if I were an ex-ATA instructor, I couldn't go out and start my own school teaching ATA taekwondo but skip the licensing deal from ATA.

I'm pretty sure that's the case. The Songahm forms are the intellectual property of ATA and are the core of the organization. And the example you gave is one of the more prevalent types of defense that they have had to do.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Seems like this would pretty much rule out an awful lot of non-commercial schools. The classic garage dojang, for example.

I'm pretty sure it would rule out many teaching in a school or rec center. The policy states you'd need a certification from your municipality allowing you to teach, but I can't imagine what it would take to convince someone in Hendersonville's government to issue such a document, when there's literally nobody for whom that's part of their job.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The predominate difference is that, although we are all licensed to teach Songahm Taekwondo, we teach it in different ways. Some do straight curriculum, some do rotating block, some only teach a subset of the weapons, some include XMA, some include Krav Maga or Jiu-Jitsu, etc. In addition, our schools follow a common style, but they are not identical. We'll all have flags on the wall, we'll mostly have either a red/black or red/white/blue trend, etc. If we were franchises, we would be cookie-cutter schools.

To use the MacDonald's analogy, every MacDonald's looks the same everywhere. The food is the same, etc, Or to use another analogy: we're not identical twins, we're fraternal twins.

That's an accurate description of the difference between a franchise and independent outlets sharing a brand, in general.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I've always found this interesting. My best guess is that Songahm poomsae fall under US copyright law in the same way that dance choreography does:

How to Copyright Choreography

• "Note that copyrighting your choreography will not prohibit others from performing the dance under the fair use principle. Fair use allows for limited personal and educational use, so that people may perform your dance in their own homes and in other arenas covered by limited personal and educational use. However, if you copyright your choreography, others cannot sell the dance or claim it as their own creation."

So for example on the wiki, if I'm reading that right, I could write my own description of the Songahm poomsae (in my own words, not copying the ATA PDFs verbatim of course) and that would likely be considered fair use. I've never put this to the test (it would be a lot of work to rewrite the PDFs in my own words, and to what end anyway?) but I think the idea of copyrighted poomsae raises a lot of interesting questions. Like...could a college club teach Songahm poomsae as long as it was for free? Could a person make (non-monetized) YouTube videos of Songahm poomsae?

If I recall the rules of Fair Use correctly, you could also perform part or all of a Songahm poomsae to discuss it for educational purposes. So you could demonstrate the Songahm poomsae and one of your own, then compare and contrast them.

Educational use doesn't entirely eliminate the protection, so I don't think even a not-for-profit club could use the copyrighted poomsae in their curriculum, any more than a non-profit is allowed to use copyrighted music without paying.