miguksaram
Master of Arts
Cool...well then I learned something today...I'm now going home to weep knowing that they are spreading all over. haha.ha.ha.
Taekwondo by another name
- Thread starter NPTKD
- Start date
Cool...well then I learned something today...I'm now going home to weep knowing that they are spreading all over. haha.ha.ha.
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
Interesting choice of name / music. I wonder:
A. Do they yteach the historical connection?
B. Are other forms named after other world events?
dancingalone
Grandmaster
A. Yes. As I understand it, Mr. Rhee is a strong American patriot and also a Christian. His forms represent his ideals.
B. They have names like Chosang or "ancestor" performed to "God Bless America" or Jayoo "Freedom" performed to "Stars and Stripes Forever". There's around six of these martial ballets I believe.
garrisons2
Orange Belt
Im referring to the video at the beginning of this thread, apparently you missed it....sir
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnV0dp-Igyw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnV0dp-Igyw&feature=related
miguksaram
Master of Arts
No...I didn't miss it, but your post didn't have any reference point so wasn't sure what you were referring to.
TaeKwonDoKevin
Yellow Belt
First - The ATA has the World Traditional TaeKwonDo Association, YES, they are International. Teaching their Song Ahm Worldwide.
YES, I agree with you 100%, BUT, the Post stated "I need KKW Certificate for International...." WTF was NOT mentioned in the post. This tells me (and obviously others) that it was IMPLIED (maybe not meant to be) that I need a KKW Certificate to be involved with an INTERNATIONAL Event. That simply is NOT True. My point has been, a KKW Certificate is Fine, but is Only good in the KKW & WTF. Just like MOST other Orgs. It was even mentioned or IMPLIED that I am cheating my students for NOT getting them KKW Certificates.
I'm not sure why the last ATA question is asked. Of course not. We ALL practice TaeKwonDo. That has been my point.
For the last time.......I have NOTHING against the KKW, WTF, ATA, ITF, ITA or any other Org (that is legit.) I have discussed this SAME issue with Chang Hon people and I get attacked.
I'm not ITF or WTF, I have good friends in BOTH orgs. I just don't see the reason to spend the $$$$ for a certificate that won't increase my knowledge a bit. It's about the KNOWLEDGE, people, NOT the CERTIFICATE.
One last thing for you all that bash the ATA. OK, I agree they have their issues, but many orgs. do. I recommend you go watch their NATIONAL/WORLD Tournament in Littlerock, Arkansas. Your neg. thoughts will be re-enforced, but I'm sure you just might be surprised of some of the Quality that is in the ATA. Some of the best techs. that I know, are/were in the ATA, ......and some of the worst.
I speak only for myself.....not others, PLEASE, don't group us all non-WTF people together.
Respectfully,
-Kevin
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
I think your opinion is based upon the fact that you aproach the certificate issue from the opposite direction of those who value the certificate. Reasoneable payment for a certificate supports the organization which made the knowledge you value available to your instructors who in turn pass it along to you and believe in supporting the organization for that same reason.
So, you are correct. The certificate does not increase your knowledge. However the ability to tap resources that enhance your knowledge was made available by the organization issuing the certificate.
TaeKwonDoKevin
Yellow Belt
Mr. Weiss, good to hear from you Sir.
You are mostly CORRECT. BUT, I do value the certificates that I do have, that's my whole point, I feel I don't need to join ANOTHER org. JUST for the Certificate. I feel & believe as long as the org. that I am in is meeting my needs, and my students, AND we do well in open tournaments, then I should give MY org. the credit & support. Just as the KKW/WTF, ITF, and others do to their orgs.
Mutual respect all the way around.
Respectfully,
-Kevin
TaeKwonDoKevin
Yellow Belt
IMHO, Sir, there are many ways to handle this.
Don't spend too much of your valuable time on someone who really isn't a competitor.
Does he seem to teach legit. TKD, but just gives out bogus Certificates?
If the guy is a joker all the way around, and is giving Martial Arts a bad name. Try this.
Order one of those Ebay Certificates, get it as High Rank as you can. Frame it and place it on your office wall near (but lower) to your REAL certificate, then place a sign, do you know the difference....blah, blah, blah.
This will educate the public, and other students.
Don't let it eat you up.....to much energy the wrong direction can look bad on you.
In time, the public will learn he is of low/no quality and he will be gone. Or have students that only want a belt and not want to really train.
I have seen these types come and go, they never last. It is shameful, but we are only accountable for ourselves.
Remember the Tenets.
Respectfully,
-Kevin
miguksaram
Master of Arts
Cool. As I stated before, I did not know that.
What seems to be happening in these threads are people are quickly jumping to any conclusion instead of asking more questions. Not just this particular incident, but many others I have seen on different threads. Perhaps asking the poster to elaborate more would have helped. I knew what he meant simply by knowing a bit about his background.
I agree. If you are pursuing KKW or WTF items, then the cert would be needed. However, if you are not then, you don't personally need it.
Well I would say if you are teaching KKW TKD and eventually your students will be doing so then I would think you would want them to be certified through the KKW. If you are advertising that you teach KKW-TKD then you should be certified under them. If you are teaching your own brand of TKD mixed with whatever else and you don't plan on pursuing KKW curriculum, then I don't see why you would need to offer them certs through KKW.
I was drawing a comparison that ATA will not allow any "outsiders" in their events unless you are certified with them, just like WTF would not allow "outsiders" into specifice events unless you are certified through KKW. Since there was a misunderstanding about WTF not being mentioned in the original post that sprouted this whole thing...it is a moot point.
I agree. It is about the knowledge. I can learn how to be a plubmer simply by going to the book stores reading about it and working on my toilet at home. So why do I need to have a certificate saying that I'm a plumber? The cert, simply shows that you adhered to a specific curriculum and passed the test. That is what the cert does. It may also allow you to pursue other knowledge based classes within that org. If those classes don't interest you, then fine.
Taylor Nicholas, who won their world championship a couple of years ago, trained with our instructors. Like any other org you will have great athletes and you will have piss poor athletes. I personally don't look at 100 great athletes from 100 different schools and say wow ATA/KKW/ITF/ITA...know their crap! Even a blind squirel will eventually find a nut.
I prefer to look at several students from an individual school and draw a conclusion on the individual school not the org.As I hope you don't lump all KKW/WTF people together.
I am a 3rd Dan (San Dan) in TKD. Started training in the Okinawa/Korea Karate assocition in 1980 with Sensei Randy Wozin a Black Belt in both Okinawan & Korean Arts.
I have trained using Hyungs, Pinans, Kibons, Pawlges, TaeGueks, etc... Even Bassi Dai & Bassi Sho, Nahunchi (sp?) the list goes on and on. Many aspects of these forms go hand in hand. If it is a compitent form and a compitent practitioner, I say view the form from the stand point of "Is it done well, does it look like the performer can make it work = is it functional, does it adhere to the sound priciples that uphold the art?" That is what is important to me.
I have seen forms done very well and it looked functional. I have seen even BBs walk thru forms standing the arts & form reputation to carry them and do the form no justice.
PLEASE NOTE: I am not a TKD basher but there are a few old school 70's Karate & Tae Kwon Do Black Belt jokes that have impressed me (A blanket generalization I know, but jokes with some sound insight pointing out that some pratitioners participate at the most superficial level) that it is not only the art, the form but the spirit behind it. Meaning that some hide behind BBs, Associations, etc... to sheild themselves. The following are 2 jokes I learned from my 1st Instructor, Please try not to be offended.
1- What is the difference between Okinawan & Korean Emtyhand?
$40 a month
2- Have youy seen 5 Korean emptyhand forms?
Yes
Then you have seen them all.
Again, please understand I am not TKD bashing, but some poor practitioners and Instructors have impressed even high level Instructors of many arts, that the blanket that is TKD can be seen as Kid's karate. I did not do this to Western TKD as a whole in terms of perception, others have. But looking at some performances of so called TKD Masters and their Business practices can belittle a damn good art overall.
Tang Soo Do, Moo Duk Kwan & Tae Kwon Do ( As well as other arts) as I have learned, are great competition arts as well as self defense arts. I am sad to say some have lowered the bar and general perception of these arts. Again, not my doing (Or I would not hold BB rank in 3 different asoociations of TKD, Karate, Kenpo, Bando and Associate Intructor rank in other arts as well) but I feel the forms of a system does not identify the individual. No-one should hide behind an assoc./org etc... and say how dare you question me, I know so and so forms 1 thru 8 and BB forms XYZ.
I myself many times have visited schools, even looking for PT assistant instructor work, and had a less capable and knowledgable Instructor demand, "SHOW ME YOUR FORMS". I then ripped thru old forms and new forms and forms from outside of the TKD/Karate systems and was then asked "Would you teach those forms to my BBs?"
The forms systemitize the art, not solely identify it. The practioner is to breath life into it. I have heard from 2 of my Instructors in the past when if I ever did not perform to my fullest " YOU ARE KILLING MY ART JAMES, YOU ARE (Expletive Deleted) KILLING IT!!! FIGHT FOR YOUR LIFE OR I WILL TAKE YOUR LIFE!!!" But when I gathered myself and performed the form as though I were fighting for my life (In the deadly eyes of my Instructor I was, for he was watching every move trying to kill me with dagger eyes, only being satisfied if I were to survive his gaze) then I got just as much positive and he gave me negative "YES JAMES, THAT'S IT. THAT'S WHAT I WANNA SEE, I WANNA SEE YOU BREATHING HEAVY, DROOLING SPIT AND HAVING SNOT BUBBLES COMING FROM YOUR NOSE. I WANNA SEE YOU FOAMING AT THE MOUTH!!!!" He belives that no-one just casually walks thru a life or death situation.
I was always taught that (Especially in BB division, emptyhand or weapons or testing) if you make a mistake you are dead, no second chances, no do overs, no asking sir may I begin again?
Although I understand that not every form in every system is to be done that intensely, you as a practitioner must breath life into it, make it work. jugdes should see your form and not just feel like "OK, so he/she completed the forms sequence correctly = high score" the judges should be bowled over and impressed to feel "WOW, now that looked like it would work well = high score"
I hope members understand my point & opinion. Again my light hearted jokes were not meant to bash TKD, but to (Maybe) bash those who we can all see as sleepwalking thru the art. I apologize if my opinion has offended anyones sensibilties, just expressing in a long winded fashion how I feel about forms, performance and the credibilty of Black Belts.
PEACE JIMI
I have trained using Hyungs, Pinans, Kibons, Pawlges, TaeGueks, etc... Even Bassi Dai & Bassi Sho, Nahunchi (sp?) the list goes on and on. Many aspects of these forms go hand in hand. If it is a compitent form and a compitent practitioner, I say view the form from the stand point of "Is it done well, does it look like the performer can make it work = is it functional, does it adhere to the sound priciples that uphold the art?" That is what is important to me.
I have seen forms done very well and it looked functional. I have seen even BBs walk thru forms standing the arts & form reputation to carry them and do the form no justice.
PLEASE NOTE: I am not a TKD basher but there are a few old school 70's Karate & Tae Kwon Do Black Belt jokes that have impressed me (A blanket generalization I know, but jokes with some sound insight pointing out that some pratitioners participate at the most superficial level) that it is not only the art, the form but the spirit behind it. Meaning that some hide behind BBs, Associations, etc... to sheild themselves. The following are 2 jokes I learned from my 1st Instructor, Please try not to be offended.
1- What is the difference between Okinawan & Korean Emtyhand?
$40 a month
2- Have youy seen 5 Korean emptyhand forms?
Yes
Then you have seen them all.
Again, please understand I am not TKD bashing, but some poor practitioners and Instructors have impressed even high level Instructors of many arts, that the blanket that is TKD can be seen as Kid's karate. I did not do this to Western TKD as a whole in terms of perception, others have. But looking at some performances of so called TKD Masters and their Business practices can belittle a damn good art overall.
Tang Soo Do, Moo Duk Kwan & Tae Kwon Do ( As well as other arts) as I have learned, are great competition arts as well as self defense arts. I am sad to say some have lowered the bar and general perception of these arts. Again, not my doing (Or I would not hold BB rank in 3 different asoociations of TKD, Karate, Kenpo, Bando and Associate Intructor rank in other arts as well) but I feel the forms of a system does not identify the individual. No-one should hide behind an assoc./org etc... and say how dare you question me, I know so and so forms 1 thru 8 and BB forms XYZ.
I myself many times have visited schools, even looking for PT assistant instructor work, and had a less capable and knowledgable Instructor demand, "SHOW ME YOUR FORMS". I then ripped thru old forms and new forms and forms from outside of the TKD/Karate systems and was then asked "Would you teach those forms to my BBs?"
The forms systemitize the art, not solely identify it. The practioner is to breath life into it. I have heard from 2 of my Instructors in the past when if I ever did not perform to my fullest " YOU ARE KILLING MY ART JAMES, YOU ARE (Expletive Deleted) KILLING IT!!! FIGHT FOR YOUR LIFE OR I WILL TAKE YOUR LIFE!!!" But when I gathered myself and performed the form as though I were fighting for my life (In the deadly eyes of my Instructor I was, for he was watching every move trying to kill me with dagger eyes, only being satisfied if I were to survive his gaze) then I got just as much positive and he gave me negative "YES JAMES, THAT'S IT. THAT'S WHAT I WANNA SEE, I WANNA SEE YOU BREATHING HEAVY, DROOLING SPIT AND HAVING SNOT BUBBLES COMING FROM YOUR NOSE. I WANNA SEE YOU FOAMING AT THE MOUTH!!!!" He belives that no-one just casually walks thru a life or death situation.
I was always taught that (Especially in BB division, emptyhand or weapons or testing) if you make a mistake you are dead, no second chances, no do overs, no asking sir may I begin again?
Although I understand that not every form in every system is to be done that intensely, you as a practitioner must breath life into it, make it work. jugdes should see your form and not just feel like "OK, so he/she completed the forms sequence correctly = high score" the judges should be bowled over and impressed to feel "WOW, now that looked like it would work well = high score"
I hope members understand my point & opinion. Again my light hearted jokes were not meant to bash TKD, but to (Maybe) bash those who we can all see as sleepwalking thru the art. I apologize if my opinion has offended anyones sensibilties, just expressing in a long winded fashion how I feel about forms, performance and the credibilty of Black Belts.
PEACE JIMI
TaeKwonDoKevin
Yellow Belt
Cool. As I stated before, I did not know that.
What seems to be happening in these threads are people are quickly jumping to any conclusion instead of asking more questions. Not just this particular incident, but many others I have seen on different threads. Perhaps asking the poster to elaborate more would have helped. I knew what he meant simply by knowing a bit about his background.
I agree. If you are pursuing KKW or WTF items, then the cert would be needed. However, if you are not then, you don't personally need it.
Well I would say if you are teaching KKW TKD and eventually your students will be doing so then I would think you would want them to be certified through the KKW. If you are advertising that you teach KKW-TKD then you should be certified under them. If you are teaching your own brand of TKD mixed with whatever else and you don't plan on pursuing KKW curriculum, then I don't see why you would need to offer them certs through KKW.
I was drawing a comparison that ATA will not allow any "outsiders" in their events unless you are certified with them, just like WTF would not allow "outsiders" into specifice events unless you are certified through KKW. Since there was a misunderstanding about WTF not being mentioned in the original post that sprouted this whole thing...it is a moot point.
I agree. It is about the knowledge. I can learn how to be a plubmer simply by going to the book stores reading about it and working on my toilet at home. So why do I need to have a certificate saying that I'm a plumber? The cert, simply shows that you adhered to a specific curriculum and passed the test. That is what the cert does. It may also allow you to pursue other knowledge based classes within that org. If those classes don't interest you, then fine.
Taylor Nicholas, who won their world championship a couple of years ago, trained with our instructors. Like any other org you will have great athletes and you will have piss poor athletes. I personally don't look at 100 great athletes from 100 different schools and say wow ATA/KKW/ITF/ITA...know their crap! Even a blind squirel will eventually find a nut.
As I hope you don't lump all KKW/WTF people together.
Its seems we agree 100% on everything.
Thanks for the post! ; )
Respectfully,
-Kevin
miguksaram
Master of Arts
dancingalone
Grandmaster
This bears repeating. Anyone who thinks there's been some KKW bashing going on should review the recent thread in question that was closed. One person essentially said non-KKW certs were the equivalent of buying shoes at Walmart, which was intended to be an insult.
I myself respect the KKW for their efforts in organizing and forwarding taekwondo. I don't agree with everything they do, but that's life. It's only when someone tries to tell me that his mode of TKD is better than any other version that I have problems...
OP
OP
NPTKD
Brown Belt
Only after the KKW certificate was said to be toliet paper! Get your fact right.
Thank you!
OP
OP
NPTKD
Brown Belt
and for that matter go thru any post that I have ever made on this site and show me where I have ever bashed or said KKw taekwondo was the only one, or the best. I have only and still will say that you as an instructor should give your students the right of choice! Tell them up front and let then know the pros and cons... Not just your opion! And when you find the post that I have bashed another art let me know.
Ladies and gentlemen, the heat being generated in this thread has gotten a bit hotter than the "friendly discussion" level that Martial Talk prides itself on. Everyone take a moment for a deep breath and return to the topic with cooler heads, please.
-Jeff Letchford
-MT super moderator
-Jeff Letchford
-MT super moderator
