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Systema for Law Enforcement Officers? Is it a good style for LEO's to consider, in your opinion? If so, why? If not why?
Systema for Law Enforcement Officers?
- Thread starter Jonathan Randall
- Start date
Stratiotes
White Belt
SonnyPuzikas
Yellow Belt
Short answer is yes. And then some...
Reasons:
-Systema allows for seamless transition from soft work, needed to handle subjects that are not activelly resisting, to very efficient and final work, when faced with immediate threat of grave bodily harm or death. More importantly- all the work across the spectrum of force continuum is based on the same principles, not excluding work with your firearms (handgun and rifle), so officer does not need to learn one set of principles and techniques for striking work, another set (sometimes radically different) for ground work, and yet another for weapons retention.
-Systema approach when properly trained and executed is much more "camera safe" than any other approach I have encountered.
-It allows sliding approach to escalation of force. If 72 year old grandma is initially cooperating while you serving arrest warrant on her drug dealer grandson, but then unexpectedly grabs your handgun, you have other options than hammerfist to her left temple or 2 40SW rounds to her center mass...
-Systema principles integrated into team work make for very efficient and quick work in resolving full spectrum of possible situations.
There is so much more....but I gotta run.
Reasons:
-Systema allows for seamless transition from soft work, needed to handle subjects that are not activelly resisting, to very efficient and final work, when faced with immediate threat of grave bodily harm or death. More importantly- all the work across the spectrum of force continuum is based on the same principles, not excluding work with your firearms (handgun and rifle), so officer does not need to learn one set of principles and techniques for striking work, another set (sometimes radically different) for ground work, and yet another for weapons retention.
-Systema approach when properly trained and executed is much more "camera safe" than any other approach I have encountered.
-It allows sliding approach to escalation of force. If 72 year old grandma is initially cooperating while you serving arrest warrant on her drug dealer grandson, but then unexpectedly grabs your handgun, you have other options than hammerfist to her left temple or 2 40SW rounds to her center mass...
-Systema principles integrated into team work make for very efficient and quick work in resolving full spectrum of possible situations.
There is so much more....but I gotta run.
I decades of training in many systems..under some very notable teachers...I feel that Systema has much more to offer to LEO's and other professions of this type - than more fistic or grappling oriented mthodologies. Sonny said it very well and I agree with him.
And the - 'there is more' statement is true, also.
Dealing emotionally and spiritually with the residual effects of violence is something considered by Systema. Oddly enough, even this fits well into many such 'recovery programs' offered by NYC law enforcement agencies.
I will wait to see what Sonny puts down - he has become more and more eloquent over the years.
*****
BTW - IMHO, this thread saw some pretty rapid growth in a burst over a short time...kinda like the 'old days' here....and its kinda nice to find here - once more.
Shall we continue?
And the - 'there is more' statement is true, also.
Dealing emotionally and spiritually with the residual effects of violence is something considered by Systema. Oddly enough, even this fits well into many such 'recovery programs' offered by NYC law enforcement agencies.
I will wait to see what Sonny puts down - he has become more and more eloquent over the years.
*****
BTW - IMHO, this thread saw some pretty rapid growth in a burst over a short time...kinda like the 'old days' here....and its kinda nice to find here - once more.
Shall we continue?
Heard nothing but good about it..I haven't had the oppertunity to attend a seminar as of yet..Time and no money, or money and no time..Since the department slashed the training budget AGAIN I have to foot the bill for anything I wish to attend...
Hey Drac -
I understand, man. I work with many of the same limits in my life also.
Where are you located? I will be attempting to set up a buncha system folks of different experience - in NYC. Would you like an invite? Would anyone like one?
The seminar would either be free or quite inexpensive. As one of the co-conspirators..all we would as is to join us after the session and YOU buy a round....and just be real and post what you experienced. 1 round of drink with some of the best northeast systema folks...and post - agree - or shred it up.
You not gonna get a better offer on any martial web site, right now! LOL! Do I need include a set of Ginsu knives?
*******
Jackal, Rachel - et al/involved -- I KNOW you will all read what follows....so as you all pretty much know me - give me a moment.
Pretty please with vodka sauce.
I suggest we think about the possibility of the certified and the curious and all in between - meet once a year...lol - maybe twice. Either (as Rachelk suggested - at FightHouse)...OR...in the easily accessable public park where Systema was taught for free, at one time. Guess I am calling on my brother Jesse and sister Rachel - a power of 3!
The triangle is a very strong geometry.
And I KNOW you 2 will read this!
How's about we set up a conference call....and discuss this!
It could take months to set up the first one - and after that, much easier.
Might take a year or two to really get 'the crew' into it..but is it not worth the effort.
A Systema-Stock!
Very cheap - money raised for an agreed upon charity.
My peers, right now -only something like this can lure me out of ''the wood's" at this point and time. And bring The Jackal back off his sweet, swetty road.
MAYBE - oneday - we can rock and roll well enough to bring Art to this..or help pay a weremoose to visit NYC. Maybe even get at best one of the good/bad/ugly to eventually attend.
A journey of a thousand miles - begins with the first step. I have a (probably, useless) vision...yet invite you both right now - to walk with 'me.'
"Abide with me..and you 'might' see - that the best? Is yet to be"!
with proper appologies to Mr. Randall - Mr. Hubbard - and the original author of the single verse above.
If 'it's' to be - its up to 'we'!
I understand, man. I work with many of the same limits in my life also.
Where are you located? I will be attempting to set up a buncha system folks of different experience - in NYC. Would you like an invite? Would anyone like one?
The seminar would either be free or quite inexpensive. As one of the co-conspirators..all we would as is to join us after the session and YOU buy a round....and just be real and post what you experienced. 1 round of drink with some of the best northeast systema folks...and post - agree - or shred it up.
You not gonna get a better offer on any martial web site, right now! LOL! Do I need include a set of Ginsu knives?
*******
Jackal, Rachel - et al/involved -- I KNOW you will all read what follows....so as you all pretty much know me - give me a moment.
Pretty please with vodka sauce.
I suggest we think about the possibility of the certified and the curious and all in between - meet once a year...lol - maybe twice. Either (as Rachelk suggested - at FightHouse)...OR...in the easily accessable public park where Systema was taught for free, at one time. Guess I am calling on my brother Jesse and sister Rachel - a power of 3!
The triangle is a very strong geometry.
And I KNOW you 2 will read this!
How's about we set up a conference call....and discuss this!
It could take months to set up the first one - and after that, much easier.
Might take a year or two to really get 'the crew' into it..but is it not worth the effort.
A Systema-Stock!
Very cheap - money raised for an agreed upon charity.
My peers, right now -only something like this can lure me out of ''the wood's" at this point and time. And bring The Jackal back off his sweet, swetty road.
MAYBE - oneday - we can rock and roll well enough to bring Art to this..or help pay a weremoose to visit NYC. Maybe even get at best one of the good/bad/ugly to eventually attend.
A journey of a thousand miles - begins with the first step. I have a (probably, useless) vision...yet invite you both right now - to walk with 'me.'
"Abide with me..and you 'might' see - that the best? Is yet to be"!
with proper appologies to Mr. Randall - Mr. Hubbard - and the original author of the single verse above.
If 'it's' to be - its up to 'we'!
Drac,
Due to your location you might want to consider driving to Vlad's school for some classes. Classes are only $7 (you'll have to call and confirm). From Cleveland it is probably less than a 5 hour drive. If went in the warmer months you could probably find a camp ground to keep expenses down.
Vlad offers classes M-F nights and day classes M, W, F. One of his students, Emmanuel, also has classes M-F but his day classes are Tuesday and Thursday, hence you can hit 2 classes per day for less than $20 and if you want to you can schedule private lessons. Those normally run $60-80 per hour but the price stays the same if there is one person, two people, three or four. Hence if you are with a small group the cost becomes very reasonable and the training and special attention is great.
I do suggest you fuel up in NY before you cross into Canada as the price of gas is in Canada is frightening.
Just some thoughts on another possibility.
Mark J.
Due to your location you might want to consider driving to Vlad's school for some classes. Classes are only $7 (you'll have to call and confirm). From Cleveland it is probably less than a 5 hour drive. If went in the warmer months you could probably find a camp ground to keep expenses down.
Vlad offers classes M-F nights and day classes M, W, F. One of his students, Emmanuel, also has classes M-F but his day classes are Tuesday and Thursday, hence you can hit 2 classes per day for less than $20 and if you want to you can schedule private lessons. Those normally run $60-80 per hour but the price stays the same if there is one person, two people, three or four. Hence if you are with a small group the cost becomes very reasonable and the training and special attention is great.
I do suggest you fuel up in NY before you cross into Canada as the price of gas is in Canada is frightening.
Just some thoughts on another possibility.
Mark J.
I think the Systema training mindset (survive,adapt,etc) pretty accurately reflects some of the limitless possibilities you may encounter in law enforcement.
I remember a quote by Mikhail, I believe, where he said it was important to learn how to fight before learning too much technique. I think this sums it up for me. In California a lot of what we do in defensive tactics is Aikido based or Gracie Jujutsu based. Both are very technique oriented (at least as taught in deftac classes).
I think it would be more beneficial to learn how to keep on your feet, breath, move, etc. while under a variety of attacks rather than spending all day working on an armbar. Also there is a lot of value in learning how to hit and take a hit. These things are extremely basic but most programs gloss over this stuff because it doesn't make people ooh and ahhh!
I also like the Systema take on groundfighting. When we hear the expression groundfighting we often immediately think of two guys in spandex shorts looking for the rear naked choke. Sure that is part of it but what about getting knocked down and stomped. Being able to deal with this is important too.
One thing that needs to be specifically addressed for law enforcement though which isn't covered extensively in most Systema classes are finishing holds and come alongs. Most deftac classes will teach some of these though and you can adopt them as needed.
Also the Russian method of pistol shooting I have seen (one handed point shooting) is geared towards low caliber pistols (Makarovs) which have little recoil. I am still trying to learn how to reconcile relaxation with tension to find the right equilibrium which will allow me to be flexible and fluid but at the same time will allow accurate follow-up shots.
Sonny do you have any thoughts on this?
Jeff
I remember a quote by Mikhail, I believe, where he said it was important to learn how to fight before learning too much technique. I think this sums it up for me. In California a lot of what we do in defensive tactics is Aikido based or Gracie Jujutsu based. Both are very technique oriented (at least as taught in deftac classes).
I think it would be more beneficial to learn how to keep on your feet, breath, move, etc. while under a variety of attacks rather than spending all day working on an armbar. Also there is a lot of value in learning how to hit and take a hit. These things are extremely basic but most programs gloss over this stuff because it doesn't make people ooh and ahhh!
I also like the Systema take on groundfighting. When we hear the expression groundfighting we often immediately think of two guys in spandex shorts looking for the rear naked choke. Sure that is part of it but what about getting knocked down and stomped. Being able to deal with this is important too.
One thing that needs to be specifically addressed for law enforcement though which isn't covered extensively in most Systema classes are finishing holds and come alongs. Most deftac classes will teach some of these though and you can adopt them as needed.
Also the Russian method of pistol shooting I have seen (one handed point shooting) is geared towards low caliber pistols (Makarovs) which have little recoil. I am still trying to learn how to reconcile relaxation with tension to find the right equilibrium which will allow me to be flexible and fluid but at the same time will allow accurate follow-up shots.
Sonny do you have any thoughts on this?
Jeff
RachelK
Purple Belt
Of course, maybe we can set a date that we know is good for all of us, a bank holiday, perhaps, when offices are closed (although I know Rob's place of employment operates 24/7) and make it an annual tradition. I am sure Edgar and Peggy would let us use Fighthouse.
But the conference call, I have no idea how to do that. It is possible, on my office phone and I believe my cell phone too. But I'm not enough of a technical wiz to figure it out. Other than that, count me in, for sure.
All the best,
Rachel
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