Systema + another art?

[Rommel]

On the topic of another art, we do a fair amount of combat grappling (combat sambo) here in Toronto, but I've heard many of the assistant instructors comment that any decent grappling art would definitely supplement your training and make you more well rounded. I know that my wrestling background has only been an asset.

 

[Mark Jakabcsin]

Arthur & Rommel,
Good points and one's I had considered writing in my orignal post but was too tired and lazy. I had just returned from a trip last night and was a bit wiped out. Of course I am packing today to leave on my next trip, Toronto, in the morning.

mark

 

[Rich_]

Originally posted by Mark Jakabcsin
This also holds true for many martial arts. Arts that require the practitioner to learn specific motions with precise angles, movements, timing and shapes are best learned/practiced when fresh or at least not totally exhausted. I am not familiar with the ROSS system so I can't comment on how learning takes place for that system. Perhaps someone can expand.

It's not connected with specific motions, merely training muscle memory. All arts and styles train some degree of muscle memory; in my experience, the Russians far more than most. Some people think of it as only applying to precise, dextrous movements - the sort of things that are the first to go out of the window in a pressure situatuion - it's not. Training flow, evasion, softness, all require subconscious response and muscle memory to take the place of paralysis by analysis.

All muscle memory is harmed by fatigue. Whatever you gain from training that way, you will gain muscle memory far slower.

So what do you gain? Physical conditioning. Familiarity with the willpower you need to go on when you're not sure if you can - in my view, probably *the* most valuable attribute for some people. Extreme fatigue symptoms mimic many adrenaline-rush symptoms - no fine motor control, loss of peripheral vision, etc - that make exhaustion-training a very good 'truth pill' for fighting approaches.

And, as you said, it teaches efficient motion very well - but you must know a little about how to move efficiently in the circumstances before you can apply it. Otherwise you would see perfect Russian movements from exhausted athletes, rather than their posture and breathing gradually degrading. Boxers don't get more efficient over time in a match; each round is more tiring than the last, until their fatigue saps their strength and their technique is reduced to nothing.

The body will resistant motions that are not efficient and substitute motions with the simplest and easiest answers.

The advantage of the Russian systems is that they offer movements that can be so utilised. But again, these movements have to be trained; the natural punch of an exhausted, highly stressed, untrained person is an exhausting haymaker - just watch a fight, in any culture. It's only by training to exhaustion, and feeling which movements feel most natural and efficient that you can utilise them.

Over time it is the goal of the Systema practioner to move as naturally and efficiently as possilbe with as little consiuous thought as possible. Training when exhausted helps to teach the body/mind the potential of moving in such a manner and helps us to let go. Eventually natural motion is attainable without being exhausted.

That seems to my point of view backwards, or at least a less efficient way than to practice the motions and then refine them under fatigue. It may be a stylistic difference, though; I certainly agree that it is a good way to study efficiency.

I wholeheartedly agree with Arthur - take the lessons from training, not just the discomfort - but he put it far better than I could.

 

[jellyman]

Rich_

I think the getting people to fight 'tired' thing may be part of the military tradition - on a spetz mission, the operative may have to deal with combatants after a long march or run, may be injured or sick or poisoned, may have had to go without food or water for a while, etc. The best way to prepare for that is to simulate it. Fighting tired also shows you what's sunk in - tired people will use the stuff that works on a primitive level - which may be just haymakers at first, but as training progresses, more systema comes out. This is from first-hand experience. All I can say is that VV has this way of teaching the spine.

This isn't just a systema thing btw. There was this Oscar DeLaHoya (sp) boxing match a little while ago, wherein ODLH had a grudge match against a slugger. He'd gone up a weight class to do it, and spent the first few rounds slugging it out, trying to get a KO. Well, as you may know, going up a weight class can interfere with endurance if done too quickly, and by the 5th round or so, ODLH was gassed, while the other guy was fresh. All of a sudden, ODLH changed styles. Back straight, arms dangling at his sides, he couldn't even lift his hands by arm power. Instead, he starts torquing the waist and throwing whip strikes and relying mostly on footwork for defense- I thought I was watching VV's H2H for a second. ODLH went on to win by KO a few rounds later - when he stopped trying to go for a KO and started fighting to survive.

Sometimes if the instructor feels that the students are being too tense, muscling too hard, s/he will make them tired so they relax more. Deep relaxation can be attained after deep tension - we do this in our tension/relaxation wave excercises as well.

Muscle memory? I've heard that term used in karate and jjj, but never in systema. Perhaps a definition of terms is in order there.

I remember going to VV's a couple months ago, and he was talking to someone else. He sees me, grins and grabs me in a 1-armed hug. Then he starts hitting my arm, over and over. At some point in the conversation, he is telling the guy that proper movement comes from the body not the head. To illustrate, instead of hitting my arm, he throws a punch at my chest. Of its own volition, my body moved just far enough so that he missed (I think the 'attack proof' guys call this "pocketing"). His explanation - the hitting had programmed that repsonse in me. At a deep level, I recognized when a hit would come from being hit so often.

Now, the muscle memory theory I grew up with would dictate that I'd have to practice 'pocketing' against a blow to the body repeatedly for a while before I could do it automaticaly.

It may well be that the teaching methods of the two styles differ.

 

[Jay Bell]

I remember going to VV's a couple months ago, and he was talking to someone else. He sees me, grins and grabs me in a 1-armed hug. Then he starts hitting my arm, over and over. At some point in the conversation, he is telling the guy that proper movement comes from the body not the head. To illustrate, instead of hitting my arm, he throws a punch at my chest. Of its own volition, my body moved just far enough so that he missed (I think the 'attack proof' guys call this "pocketing"). His explanation - the hitting had programmed that repsonse in me. At a deep level, I recognized when a hit would come from being hit so often.

We worked with this principle at the San Diego seminar. We were working on psychic responses to people attacking...putting people down without physical contact. Someone asked Vlad, "So, what if we run into someone that hasn't been conditioned this way? Someone that has never been hit?"

Vlad chuckled and said, "Hit them, they'll learn it"

 

[arnisador]

I know of other arts that use the idea of training after becoming exhausted--e.g. Sayoc Kali. Most grappling arts have this idea built in!

I might add Boxing to the list.

 

[Rich_]

Originally posted by jellyman
Fighting tired also shows you what's sunk in - tired people will use the stuff that works on a primitive level - which may be just haymakers at first, but as training progresses, more systema comes out. This is from first-hand experience. All I can say is that VV has this way of teaching the spine.

I agree completely. Get the skills to the point where it becomes a matter of concentration *not* to do them; whether pocketing a blow, sprawling against a shoot, keeping the back of your hands towards any knife danger.

All of a sudden, ODLH changed styles. Back straight, arms dangling at his sides, he couldn't even lift his hands by arm power. Instead, he starts torquing the waist and throwing whip strikes and relying mostly on footwork for defense- I thought I was watching VV's H2H for a second.

Sounds a lot like Naseem Hamed's style, too - really exciting to watch. And it sounds like he'd been concentrating on not fighting that way - it really saps your energy.

Muscle memory? I've heard that term used in karate and jjj, but never in systema. Perhaps a definition of terms is in order there.
<snip>
Now, the muscle memory theory I grew up with would dictate that I'd have to practice 'pocketing' against a blow to the body repeatedly for a while before I could do it automaticaly.

Well, I'm not a neurophysiologist, so apologies for any woolliness. There are a few fundamental movements - common, it seems, to ROSS and Systema - twisting the body. A lot of the improvements in my working of the system has come directly from improvements in the whole-body co-ordination of body twists, arm deflections. And it's something that, in one form or another, is practised dozens of times a week. So training your body to roll and twist becomes a second nature, and gets progressively easier the more you do it.

Now, it's almost certainly not pure muscle memory, as it involves sensory input, but having the motions memorised and called-up for action is what I was talking about. At that stage, the motions come to the fore and can be really refined by exhaustion training.

 

[Paul Genge]

When I first visited Vlad's he had just come back from Moscow. After the usual introductions he explainined that Michael had made them do lots of exercises during his trip and it had reminded him how he was taught. This should have been a clue that the next six weeks would be challenging.

The first week we did nothing, but exercises and breathing. The second week he started to introduce a little other work towards the end of the lesson. Through the following weeks the periods of exercise decreased while the periods of other work increased. In one lesson we rolled side to side from our fronts onto our backs and then back again for 1 hour.

At the end of that trip I was probably the fittest I have ever been, but more importantly I could breath. Infact I was sometimes so worn out that I could not climb the stairs in the hostel unless I breathed.

I have some exercise and training drills on my website for anyone looking for some ideas. http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk

Paul Genge