Suing for Kukkiwon Certificate

[Twin Fist]

totally, you can require any length of training you see fit, thats your right as the instructor

but once they pass that test, the cert is thier property, not yours.

this practice would not fly in any other type of school that I am aware of. I am in Nursing school now. When i finish it, and pass my test, i get my graduation cert. That doenst give me the right to work, but it is proof that i passed

I then will have to pass the licensing test, and then i get my license to practice.

but when i graduate school, i get a graduation cert.

 

[andyjeffries]

this is my opinion and i am entitled to it

By the way, I absolutely agree with this line!

Just saying that I disagree and posted my reasons why

 

[Twin Fist]

everyone is entitled to do things thier own way, but everyone else is entitled to think it's crap, or to think it is the best thing since sliced cheese

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

ok, I am gonna apologize in advance, sorry for what i am gonna say next

telling them you are gonna do something ****** doesnt make it any less ******.

it just makes them fools for agreeing to being treated ******

And how is he treating them badly? How is he cheating them? What is your reasoning behind doing it differently? Why is his way bad? Why not explain in logical not emotional terms on why you feel he is cheating them or why you feel they are fools. Not just "I've been around for 30 years and that's not right". His instructor and I believe Mst. Weiss has been around longer. So why is your way better?

I guess I'm just tired of your replies that seem to be based on nothing but "not the way I do it so your way is stupid" type attitude.

Where does he say that Earl is cheating people?? Unless it is in a previous post?

He equated Earl's policy to treating them (presumably) badly (****** never means anything positive) and to being wrong/bad/other negative descriptor.

For Earl to be cheating people, he would have to take payment for something that he is not providing, which is not the case, but that isn't what T/F is saying. It all centers around the propriety of a forced waiting period after the test is taken.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I think that we can all agree that Earl's policy is not normative in MA schools, and that it certainly will rub some of us the wrong way.

But it really is a completely separate discussion from that of the OP, which involves school owners simply taking the money and either never ordering the KKW cert, or ordering it and then surprising the student by refusing to furnish it inspite of the student having met all of the requirements that the instructor had established, resulting in legal action against said instructor.

Earl has established a requirement of a one year waiting period. Whether or not it is a good idea or not is unrelated to the OP, as Earl is furnishing the certificate after all of the requirements have been met, one of which happens to be a one year waiting period.

So, in the interest of not seeing yet another thread locked in a three day period, can we all just recognize that Earl's policy has been suitably armchair quarterbacked by the rest of us and move on?

Daniel

 

[Twin Fist]

fair enough, but the instructor int he op? needs to be sued out of business.

one guy being cheesy makes all of us look a little cheesy

 

[jks9199]

Exactly. Not withstanding vigorous disagreement noted here. AFAIAC full disclosure is the key. Nothing hidden by way of fees or requirements. Full disclosure provided in writing to all new students and for that matter any prospective students who ask. Color belt test fees range from $10.00 to $55.00. BB Starts at $150.00 for first dan because a chunk goes to the national org. Tuition for adults, 3 classes a week is $50.00 a month.
...

So, for those prospective students who don't like the policy, have no problem with them going to the competition. But, this policy is a small piece of a much larger picture.

As others have said -- I wouldn't do it. But you tell 'em the rules up front, so I don't have a problem with it. Do what you want; your students can choose to leave if they don't like it. I like your fees; they're fair and reasonable, to me.

 

[Twin Fist]

As others have said -- I wouldn't do it. But you tell 'em the rules up front, so I don't have a problem with it. Do what you want; your students can choose to leave if they don't like it. I like your fees; they're fair and reasonable, to me.

agreed with the latter

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

fair enough, but the instructor in the op? needs to be sued out of business.

Indeed!

Daniel

 

[RobinTKD]

It's only a piece of paper anyway, if you're that hung up on being a black belt, then surely its the belt that matters?

I have no problems with Mr Weiss' way of doing things, the people know when they sign up, they've agreed to it, there is no problem. I understand its just a conflict of opinion, but I can't see it being illegal in anyway.

 

[Twin Fist]

the actions of the op ARE illegal

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Since this has come up several times let me give you some input from experience. We have several instructors in my area/state who "withhold" certificates from students who have passed their tests and have paid for their tests. We also have those who have not applied for certificates for those who have paid for them. When those people come to me I have helped them get their certificates. If their certificate has been applied for and the instructor has been "holding" it that makes it easy. I can apply for a duplicate certificate through the Kukkiwon for a very cheap fee. I think the last time it was $35.
Several times the people have chosen to take the instructors in question to small claims court. It is inexpensive to do this. In ALL cases they have come out the winner. Its very simple. The judge asks the instructor if the student paid for the test. The instructor says yes (hard to say no when you have a canceled check and they know it), the judge asks if they are Kukkiwon certified (again hard to say no when its all over their website that they are), the judge asks them were their certificate is? They come up with all kinds of stupid things here but in the end the judge gives them two choices... give them the certificate or give them their money back. In the one case that I was a "witness" in the instructor refused to give them the certificate so he chose to give them their test fee back ($550 he charged them) He then tore up the certificate in front of the student and walked out. I patted her on the back and laughed, and got her a duplicate within two weeks for $35. Now this was the same guy who stood up in front of the judge with what looked to be about 50 certificates and was rather proud of the fact that he was "holding" all of them until the students "proved" their loyalty to him.
Bottom line: If you were promised it, you paid for it, you earned it then you deserve it. Dont settle for anything else and dont let them get by with cheating you out of it.

Based upon the information you've provided in your OP, and taking into account the portion I've highlighted, I would agree that these instructors are cheating their students.

It is one thing for an instructor to explain at the time the student is accepted into the school that he/she has certain rules, standards or promotional criteria they enforce. If the student then agrees to those rules, standards or promotional guidelines then they should know what to expect, and when.

However, if nothing is explained at the time of acceptance then we have an issue;

If 'loyalty' is the justification being used in some situations, hasn't the student already demonstrated loyalty by maintaining their attendence, paying their tuition and demonstrating their skill in the test in question? To withhold that which has been earned (and paid for) on the grounds of loyalty isn't a valid reason. Withholding an earned certificate then becomes at best a dangled carrot, at worse it is extortion ( : to obtain from a person by force, intimidation, or undue or illegal power). One should not have to force loyalty by withholding something.

And to be honest, loyalty goes both ways. And in this second circumstance the instructor(s) in question has been disloyal to his/her students. It seems in instances such as in the OP, commercialism and/or outright greed have replaced loyalty.

Just my two cents.

 

[msmitht]

Ok, so after re reading this entire thread I have come up with a few conclusions:
1. The instructor in the OP needs to be sued, preferably out of business.
2. This type of thing is not new to the tkd world.
3. None of us agree with how earl weiss keeps his certs for a year, but he is upfront about his witholding so he is not cheating his clients.
4. The term probationary black belt needs to be changed. How about:
KEEP EM AROUND PAYING TUITION BELT

Sorry folks. I know a lot of you have a deputy/probationary/candidate black belt. In my opinion it is a sad way to keep clients around longer. You tell them "we are a black belt school" and sign them up on the "black belt club". Some of you may have been stupid enough, hopefully not, to put "black belt is your goal" or "we are a black belt school" in big letters on the wall.
The truth is that many will quit when they get to bb. You can try as hard as you want but if they see black belt as the end all/be all then when they get there they will most likely quit. I have a high retention rate because I make it about the training, not the belt. The belt just tells you where you are in your journey.
My suggestion : do away with all the deputy/probationary/candidate garbage. If you want them to train longer then move them slower through the ranks. GIVE THEM THEIR CERT AS SOON AS YOU GET IT! Add another color belt or stripe if you think they will get unmotivated.
Earl weiss, I don't think your holding the certs for a year is in the true spirit of tkd. I have trained in itf, wtf, mdk and cdk tkd. I met gm. Choi, hong hi (god rest his soul) in person. He presided over a gm test I watched (I was 10) and gave them certs that night. One of my gm's, who promoted charles serrif to 2nd dan a long time ago in co (rocky mtn tkd), always gave out org certs the day of the test or as soon as he got them.
Now you could argue that they were gms and serrif, now gm, was a proven bb and since it was 2nd dan then it is ok to give the cert right away. I was taught that on the mat we are all equal except for the time in training. No one is special, no one above or below the rules. So if it is good for the goose.....

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

4. The term probationary black belt needs to be changed. How about:
KEEP EM AROUND PAYING TUITION BELT

Probationary blackbelt is a marketing tool. That is what a dan bo is supposed to be, but by making it a probationary black belt, the test fee can be higher.

We don't use them. We use the dan bo. Students use the time in dan bo to review the curriculum and to clean up any technical issues that they may have. Also, they are asked to assist and their conduct and maturity is looked at more closely in this period. If there are maturation issues big enough to keep the student from testing for ildan, then they can be dealt with at this time. There is no set time for dan bo, though it rarely is longer than six months. Technical issues at this point are minor; the student wouldn't have gotten that far if they had any major technical issue. This time is simply used to for some general clean up of minor loose ends. It is the attitude and maturity that is looked at at this point.

As an instructor, I don't emphasize the black belt aside from letting the students know ahead of time that they will be worn out, battered and bruised by the end of it. I want my students skills to be good and I want them to develop as people. Belts are just pieces of cloth. Rank is just paper and I only use it as a means of structuring the curriculum.

In my own studio (not a TKD studio), students that I inherit I evaluate based upon their skills and rank them accordingly. I also will not put a black belt around the waist of a child.

Of course, aside from the association fee, I don't charge anything for the test. Geub tests have no association fees and I do not charge them at all for those. Ildan students get a new dobok and a black belt with their name at one end and the studio name at the other, both in Hangeul, along with a pretty piece of paper.

Daniel

 

[miguksaram]

Probationary blackbelt is a marketing tool. That is what a dan bo is supposed to be, but by making it a probationary black belt, the test fee can be higher.

We don't use them. We use the dan bo. Students use the time in dan bo to review the curriculum and to clean up any technical issues that they may have. Also, they are asked to assist and their conduct and maturity is looked at more closely in this period. If there are maturation issues big enough to keep the student from testing for ildan, then they can be dealt with at this time. There is no set time for dan bo, though it rarely is longer than six months. Technical issues at this point are minor; the student wouldn't have gotten that far if they had any major technical issue. This time is simply used to for some general clean up of minor loose ends. It is the attitude and maturity that is looked at at this point.

Daniel

I am not familiar with dan-bo ranking. Is this the same as a 1st guep? Or is this a rank between 1st guep and 1st dan? If it is the latter why not just keep them at 1st geup until they are ready for 1st dan?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I am not familiar with dan-bo ranking. Is this the same as a 1st guep? Or is this a rank between 1st guep and 1st dan? If it is the latter why not just keep them at 1st geup until they are ready for 1st dan?

It is a rank between first geub and first dan. Cannot speak for other schools, but since I don't charge for belt tests, I find it an effective tool. The student feels a great sense of accomplishment and it allows them to have that milestone without the added associatin fees for an ildan test.

Currently, I am part of a local association with regards to the arts that I teach (essentially an association put together by a local GM). Primarilly, it allowsmy students to participate in his schools for events that he hosts that involve food and training seminars seminars that he does.

The dan bo belt that I use is essentially a pum belt. Dan bo students wear it with the red on top. Kids who are promoted to first pum simply flip the belt. I do not charge for the pum test either. If the student sticks around until old enough for BB, then I reevaluate them for ildan and collect the registration fee.

Daniel

 

[andyjeffries]

Probationary blackbelt is a marketing tool. That is what a dan bo is supposed to be, but by making it a probationary black belt, the test fee can be higher. We don't use them. We use the dan bo.

I see no difference between "dan bo" and "probationary black belt" - it's just the language used. In either case you're adding a probationary step in between 1st Geup and 1st Dan... Tomatoes, Tomaytoes

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I see no difference between "dan bo" and "probationary black belt" - it's just the language used. In either case you're adding a probationary step in between 1st Geup and 1st Dan... Tomatoes, Tomaytoes

Not actually adding anything. Students are in colored belts for roughly four years. I don't string them along past that point: you test unless you choose not to.

Once they test for ildan/black belt (and pass), they are an ildan/black belt. They get their certificate as soon as I get it. There is no probationary period at this point.

Instead of dan bo, I could just keep them in first geub longer, as Miguksaram suggested. I can subdivide the colored belts as much as I choose; I'm not collecting a fee for them. Either way, the time frame remains the same: colored belts for four years and no kids under fifteen get a black belt. Period.

Daniel

 

[miguksaram]

Not actually adding anything. Students are in colored belts for roughly four years. I don't string them along past that point. Realistically, I can subdivide the colored belts as much as I choose; I'm not collecting a fee for them. I could just keep them in first geub longer, as Miguksaram suggested, or subdivide the time as I do. Either way, the time frame remains the same.

Daniel

Right, but the point I believe Andy is trying to make is that you call it a Dan-bo and someone calls it probationary black belt. They both are interim belts while you deem them fit for black. The only difference I see at this point is the fact you do not charge for it, but, then again, you do not charge for any of your belts.

 

[terryl965]

After re-reading this entire thread I have a few choice comments I would like to make.

1st off I see this as what a school owner want to do, it does not matter if it is moralily right, ethnically right or even socially right. The question is is it legally right and the only people that can decide that is a court of LAW.

2nd most people here have said he should sue to get his money back, well that is solely up to each person. If he feels he should than do it and be done with it.

Now on to the good stuff Instructor school owners and organization have the right to run there business as they see fit. We as consumers have the right to change, stop or take legal action against any business. If most schools promote a person to black belt in two year and charge $100 for classes a month and $50 for belt testing and another say $500 for the black belt test, than that school makes $3300.00 for that BB plus whatever else they spend while there(privates, equipment, hot chocolate :erg. If I take four years to promote someone and I charge the same than I am making an additional $2400 off said person, is that gauging them NO. This is my school and these are my requirement and the average person takes four years to get a BB from me. Maybe my requirement are higher than the other school, maybe I have more S.D. principle evolved than said school. Whatever the reason is it is my school and my rules. People and consumers have chocies to make and if they would take the time to investigate and do a little homework they would understand what they are getting into.

As far as Master Weiss he educate his people with a booklet that explains everything and what his requirements are for his black belt, people walk into it with the understanding of all his requirements. Whether you or anybody else likes it or not it is his school and he can do what he likes and is morally right in doing so because he has taken the time to educate his potential students.

TKD in general since the seventies, instructor of all sorts have not been providing certification to students, kinda like unethical schools that cannot get you your certificate. Sometime I wish TKD did not have such this bad reputation and could right all the wrong that is done out there in society, but than again we live in a world where crooks and undesirables rule far more than we think.