Strength Vs Technique

[bloodwood]

In a recent article from Classical Fighting Arts magazine it described how Gichin Funakoshi categorized all the known Okinawan kata into groups. Some were good for those of lighter and smaller stature while others were better suited for those stronger and more powerfully built. As I am not getting into a discussion of Okinawan karate, I am using the analogy to get some thoughts on how Modern Arnis practitioners approach the issue of power and strength Vs fines and technique.

Should our body styles affect how we train and fight or should we adhere to pure technique in order to prevail?
In rare cases such as the Professor who had good size and power along with speed and technique, while others such as GM Anciong Bacon who was a little man and yet he was almost unbeatable.
I have worked with Master Rodel who is also a small man, and his use of speed, body movement and technique are very apparent, while power and taking over your space are not used.

Are we what we are, or should we strive to become what we should be? That should be being a combination of all of the above. Is that possible or do we have to use and play the game with what our bodies will allow?

bloodwood :asian:

 

[Rich Parsons]

Bloodwood,

I think that our bodies will dictate how we work out and or learn and or have a preference. Yet, I think there are techniques that will work when executed correctly by anyone, against anyone.

Now, the techniques that strength or even hieght may determine the outcome, are not what you should train for every day, yet you should know they are out there, and understand the concepts, so you can try to learn to counter them and or survive he technique.

Just my thoughts. (* No clear answer *)

Waiting to hear from others

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by bloodwood
I am using the analogy to get some thoughts on how Modern Arnis practitioners approach the issue of power and strength Vs fines and technique.

Should our body styles affect how we train and fight or should we adhere to pure technique in order to prevail?
In rare cases such as the Professor who had good size and power along with speed and technique, while others such as GM Anciong Bacon who was a little man and yet he was almost unbeatable.
I have worked with Master Rodel who is also a small man, and his use of speed, body movement and technique are very apparent, while power and taking over your space are not used.

Are we what we are, or should we strive to become what we should be? That should be being a combination of all of the above. Is that possible or do we have to use and play the game with what our bodies will allow?

bloodwood :asian:

Blood,
Excellent questions. Personally I work on as close to pure technique as possible. I think excellent technique backed up by personal attributes such as speed, power and so forth is the way to go. RP had excellent technique as well as strength to back it up. He could invade your space OR use body
management/leverage with minimal strength if he so chose. From the sound of your post I surmise you are a big guy(?). If so, if you worked fine technique that would make your strength an incredible asset.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Cthulhu]

Both of my FMA instructors are smaller than me. I can try to bully my way through some stuff, but they always stomp my butt. How? Precision in basic technique (and technique in general).

I think regardless of the system you train in, you should strive to perfect technique first. Once done, it should be a relatively easy matter to utilize your strength in conjunction with it.

Cthulhu

 

[thekuntawman]

there is a saying that as a young man, your best asset is strength, but as a old man, its your technique and experience.

when you do not have superior technique, strategy, timing and reflexes, then you should have better speed, power or pain tolerance. for the eskrimador, he should develop them both from the beginning, from the physical in the first year, to the non physcial after that. many teachers are quick to teach complicated techniques to there students before they are ready, whether it is to keep students interested, or just not knowing the right time to release this information. the problem is, when you throw to much information at your students, and he does not have the physical skills (speed and power) or developed skills (timing and reflexes) to make them work, he is unprepared for combat because he has nothing which comes natural to him that will work. how many times have you seen a man who knows hundreds of techniques and drills, and still cant fight? at least if he has (for example) 10 techniques he knows well, and he has good speed balance, stamina, and power, he will have a better chance than if he knows 100 techniques with good physical skills, and even if he knows 1,000 techniques with NO physical skills.

this is why the fighter should not engage in to much theory. the theory martial artist is one who can think up all these ways to stop a punch, but he does not have anything stamped into his head which one he is going to do. or even worse, if he does not have the strength or speed to make it do any damage. thoery is fine after you have the non-physical and physical foundation. in this case you can probably make almost anything work. when i was young, i even use to do a cartwheel kick i saw billy blanks do, which he knocked many people down. yeah i was stupid, but because i had the speed and power it worked.

when you teach a student, the fastest thing he will develop is his power and speed. so its best to make sure he has that at the foundation of everything else you will teach him. he should
1. be able to hit with power, with all of your basics.
2. be strong yet relax enough to have good speed (yes, speed comes from strength, especially with a weapon).
3. have the hand wrist and forearm strength to hold on to his weapon.
4. be able to execute 100 hits with power (in a real fight you run out of strength very fast), and have the stamina to do it.
5. have the leg strength and flexibility to move with speed and balance.

#5 is the one people ignore the most. people spend so much time thinking of ways to dance around a triangle, they forget to develop the strength in there calf and ankles which will give them the balance they need when they move fast (especially when they are evading an attack). your balance is always good when you move with no pressure. its just dancing. the real fighting footwork, is when you move faster than you can think, and do three things. 1. stay a good distance to your opponent so you can reach him. 2. be ready to counter or move again as soon as you land. 3. get there before your opponent realized you moved, and can do anything about it.

but knowing what to do can only help you if your body has the ability to do what your mind wants it to do. after you have the strength and speed, then all those neat tricks you learn will have more success when you want to do them.

 

[arnisandyz]

Kuntawman,

great reply and I agree with most of what you are saying except the following

"2. be strong yet relax enough to have good speed (yes, speed comes from strength, especially with a weapon)."

While I agree with being strong, yet relaxed, I don't agree that speed comes from strength. In my opinion speed comes from Explosive power followed by relaxation then tension or follow through at the end of the stroke. Mass is also a variable. If you would have said Speed comes from power (rather than strength) I would have agreed with you. To me, strenth is "how much can you lift (no equation of time)?" A strong truck can move a very heavy load for a very long time. Power is "how fast (time variable) can you carry a load?" A light sportscar can be considered powerful due to its acceleration even though it cant carry as heavy a load. In the end, Power is an end result of speed + other variables.

I have trained with strong guys from the gym. Big, muscular, can bench much more than me. but when we hit the heavy bag their delivery of power is about the same as mine. They are using strength of the arm to hit, I am using speed, timing, technique.

It may just be a matter of You say tomAtoe, I say tomatoe.
Thanks

Andy

 

[Dan Anderson]

Kuntawman & Arnisandyz,

Excellent posts!!! Kuntawman - yes, too many people are taught the fancy actions and complicated moves too soon and yes it is to keep your students interested. My handle for that is to go over such a move at the beginning of the class for roughly 10 minutes and then it's back to the checksheet for their level. This keeps the need for something cool satisfied while continuing in training on the basics. In terms of speed comes with strength, muscle tone definitely has something to do with it. Whether you develop that tone with weight training or repetition striking or whatever, the stronger you are doing a particular action, the greater you can do that action with ease and therein lies the power.

My personal preference in whether to first develop the physical or technical is to go for the technical. Good habits right off the bat are hard to instill in the presence of excess speed and power and bad habits are even harder to break. As the student becomes more and more skilled they go faster and stronger in increments while maintaining good technique. My opinion.

All in all, readers should hard copy you two guys' posts for good reference. Best ones I've seen in a while.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[arnisandyz]

strength VS technique

Depends also on the type of fighting you will be doing. A grappler might develop more strength, a boxer more timing, a knife fighter more speed, sensitivity.

You can also relate this to sports, a point gaurd in basketball will develop better ball handling dribbling, passing, shooting skills and bigger Centers/power forwards use there size to there advantage. The big players that can develop advanced skills (Tim duncan) do very well. Smaller gaurds that have the technical skill, but develop there physical ability (Jordan, T-Mac) also dominate.

Develop your strengths and work on your weaknesses.

Thanks

Andy

 

[Cruentus]

My brief thoughts...

I think that it is important to make any technique work for you. If that means slight modifications due to body types, then that is what that means.

I am still amazed when I see pictures of Anciong Bacon (he looks only about 5'3", and maybe no more then 120 lb), yet as I understand he was one of the most feared fighters in Cebu. Anciong could make the technique work for him to defeat others of a much larger size and stature.

So I believe that size is only one factor in the equation; you need to make your technique work for you, no matter what your size!


:asian:

 

[kkbb]

All training is/and should be geared towards the perfection of technique (basics and advanced).

We are all genetically different. To use our "assets" to our advantage in the execution of the techniques is an obvious bonus. However, these assets should not be relied upon. Tall vs Small, Light vs heavy, slow vs fast, are all variables we have little or no control of.

The constant is the technique. In its purest form we know it works. No outside influence can change that. Therefore, if we strive to perfect it, and as we get closer to perfection, then we know it will always work.

Perfect Technique execution = success
Perfect Technique execution + asset = greater success

I had a training partner whom I outwieghed by 50 LBS. It took him a long time to realize that a lock or throw was not going to work unless he stopped trying to muscle me. After months of telling him that it is "all" technique, it finally kicked in. Now he has no problem doing the techniques on me and letting me know that he learned his lesson.

Mass, strength, speed, etc... has its advantages, but in the end it will be technique that wins!

 

[bloodwood]

I like what Dan said about giving new people a whiff of the advanced stuff and then getting them back to basics. Good basics will make these advanced techniques work.

And also what Paul said about making it work for you. No matter how good the technique is, if you don't adapt it to your personal attributes it won't work well, therefore not all techniques should be used by all people. You should know them all as to be prepared for them when used against you, but in a fight you should only use what suits you and your physical capabilities.

bloodwood

 

[MJS]

Both are good to have, but I'd have to go with tech. Doing a lock on someone requires just the right movement, especially if the person is bigger than you. Prof. Presas had excellent tech. because he trained every day. We would all have it if we spent the same hours as he did. Yeah, being big and strong is definately an asset, but it also limits your movement and speed.

Mike

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by bloodwood
You should know them all as to be prepared for them when used against you, but in a fight you should only use what suits you and your physical capabilities.

bloodwood

Absolutely! The good thing about training all types of techniques and going for technical excellence is that you will be surprised by nothing if you are familiar with most everything.

MJS - Good point as RP had the technical excellence to back up his physical attributes.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[thekuntawman]

i learned this from a man named steve anderson when i was in high school. he was having a conversation with my classmate (kung fu), and explained to him, how if you develop the calf muscle and thighs and stomach, it can help you push yourself off when attacking the opponent. its hard to explain, but even though my classmate disagreed, i used his exercises and they worked.

weak muscles will not allow your body to move when you want it to, and they get tired faster. then you end up moving slower.

i have to go, but i will post more later.

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by thekuntawman
how if you develop the calf muscle and thighs and stomach, it can help you push yourself off when attacking the opponent. its hard to explain, but even though my classmate disagreed, i used his exercises and they worked.

weak muscles will not allow your body to move when you want it to, and they get tired faster. then you end up moving slower.

Here's an interesting fact from out of left field that ties in. Pro tennis player Don Budge was asked what the first thing to go in your body when you get older. He replied, "The stomach." It makes sense as that is the connection between the upper and lower body. The above on weak muscles I totally agree with. I would add that the tone of the muscles plays an added factor into it as well.

Yours,
Dan Anderson