Straight vs. circular punches... a Western historical perspective

[geezer]

Here's some stuff I found on youtube from Martin Austwick aka "Oz" on circular vs. straight punching in historical English pugilism or bare knuckle boxing from the pre-modern era. As a WC practitioner, I found his observations based on written statements from boxers of those times to be fascinating and relevant to WC.

The outward similarities between early bare-knuckle boxing or what Austwick terms historical pugilism and Wing Chun which developed around the same time have been noted before.

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2008/0906/box_g_sullivan2_sw_400.jpg

http://www.ewingchun.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/full-size/profile-images/yip-man-08.jpg

Anyway, I thought the following video clips to be relevant and thought provoking:

 

[JowGaWolf]

In what way do you think it's relevant? I don't study wing chun. I just know you WC guys like the direct path of going from point A to B in a straight line.

 

[geezer]

In what way do you think it's relevant? I don't study wing chun. I just know you WC guys like the direct path of going from point A to B in a straight line.

Relevant to the previous discussions noting similarities between Wing Chun and early Western pugilism and thought provoking in it's discussion of the relative value of the straight punch to circular or hooking punches ...especially the discussion about the vulnerability of the bare fist when thrown very hard in a hook or haymaker against a hard target.

Whatever the differences in style, the human body is nearly the same world-wide, so the same kinds of debates, such as this one over straight vs circular, etc., have popped up in the history of both Western and Eastern pugilists. OZ is a noted exponent of historical Western pugilism and I found his observations on this subject very similar to my own as a WC teacher.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Relevant to the previous discussions noting similarities between Wing Chun and early Western pugilism and thought provoking in it's discussion of the relative value of the straight punch to circular or hooking punches ...especially the discussion about the vulnerability of the bare fist when thrown very hard in a hook or haymaker against a hard target.

Whatever the differences in style, the human body is nearly the same world-wide, so the same kinds of debates, such as this one over straight vs circular, etc., have popped up in the history of both Western and Eastern pugilists. OZ is a noted exponent of historical Western pugilism and I found his observations on this subject very similar to my own as a WC teacher.

But many kung fu circular punches aren't thrown the same way as the western circular punches that were described in the video.

 

[paitingman]

But many kung fu circular punches aren't thrown the same way as the western circular punches that were described in the video.

I believe the presenters in both videos were talking in general about any hooking/circular/looping punches, and would probably say "yeah i'm talking about those too" with most circular punches we present, but that's just how I took it.

I don't know much about JowGa or most kung fu styles too in depth, so i'd love to hear some of your insight into circular vs. straight? and do you have some "circular" techniques that may trump or be an exception to the points being made?

 

[paitingman]

Relevant to the previous discussions noting similarities between Wing Chun and early Western pugilism and thought provoking in it's discussion of the relative value of the straight punch to circular or hooking punches ...especially the discussion about the vulnerability of the bare fist when thrown very hard in a hook or haymaker against a hard target.

Not to derail this thread, but I always found the topic of body conditioning to be an interesting one when comparing east and west. Boxing classically always worries about the broken hand(and it happens quite often), but in asian martial arts, some say: "We can make your hand stronger/like iron/unbreakable" and they train hard to do it. I am seriously ignorant of most western fighting systems, but I have never heard such a notion as "iron body" or "iron palm" within them.

If anyone has any examples of Western combat system utilizing body conditioning to the extent that we've seen in some Chinese martial arts, I'd like to hear about em!

 

[anerlich]

Not strictly Western, but Russian martial arts like Systema make a big deal out of being able to safely absorb blows. Not so much like "iron body", more like being relaxed to absorb the impact and moving the body to dissipate it. as regards boxers,all the decent ones have well conditioned midsections, and often include med ball work involving impacts to the midsection, etc.

I made a conscious decision not to do any iron palm training as it didn't really match my personal goals, but my instructor has done numerous cycles over time and taken a number of students through it. It certainly hardens the bones but can make them more brittle also. He did some pretty hardcore iron palm leading up to an international full contact tournament in 1982, but still ended up breaking a hand in the semi final match (he still fought and won in the final). There is a saying that "iron palm drives you mad". Some guys of my acquaintance found it disrupted their sleep, etc.

Some may try to tell me "you guys obviously weren't doing the real iron palm" but ... here's a dollar, call someone who will GAF.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I believe the presenters in both videos were talking in general about any hooking/circular/looping punches, and would probably say "yeah i'm talking about those too" with most circular punches we present, but that's just how I took it.

I don't know much about JowGa or most kung fu styles too in depth, so i'd love to hear some of your insight into circular vs. straight? and do you have some "circular" techniques that may trump or be an exception to the points being made?

With circular punches in kung fu the circular movement is used to redirect and to counter. if you throw a straight punch I'll use a circular motion to redirect that punch and to counter. The circular movement allows me to use the momentum of one circular movement to feed the movement of another circular movement.

In Jow Ga the fist is not mad the same way as it is made in boxing. We do not wrap the thumb around the knuckles and this allows us to hit with the 2 different sets of knuckles (the knuckles boxers hit with and the knuckles we use to knock on a door) and the flat part of the fist which is made of the palm and knuckle. Making a fist this ways changes the alignment of the bones in the hand. Shown in the video below

Our hooks which are in a similar motion as the hooks that he has shown. We throw our hooks in a forward facing stance and a side ways stance. Our techniques when using these hooks target the soft and vital areas of the head. It is my belief that the founder of Jow Ga fought a lot of Wing Chun fighters as our techniques seem to mess up the concept of A to B being the fastest route. A to B is only the fastest route if B does not move before the hit. If I throw a circular punch at the same time you throw a linear punch then I can land my punch first provided that I move in a different position. In the video below you can see a circular punch beat a direct punch by moving B

The other thing about the circular punches of eastern systems is that they have a tendency to go outside a persons field of vision so for a short period of time the person is unaware of where the punch is. Curve punches often strike around a person's guard. This can also be seen in the video. I don't hate or think that straight punches are weak. Because we use quite a few of straight punch. A circular system doesn't mean that all the punches used are circular.

When I watched the video my assumption was that he was only talking about the curve punches and straight punching from early western boxing. If so then that means some of his comments about circular punches won't apply to circular martial arts. The only thing that applies universal, is the theory about the straight linear punch, provided that B does not move while the punch is being executed.

Straight vs linear is often viewed with the assumption that one is better or faster than the other instead of viewing them as a tool of attack that works well this way or that way. If your goal is to hit the front of the face then the jab is best for the task. If the target is to the side of the head then the best attack is a circular one. A person can break their hand just as easily from a jab as they can from a circular punch. For Jow Ga, a person is probably more likely to damage their forearm and soft tissue areas on the arm from a circular punch as a result of hitting the elbow.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I am seriously ignorant of most western fighting systems, but I have never heard such a notion as "iron body" or "iron palm" within them.

Western boxing doesn't condition their hands. Most of their hand conditioning comes from just hitting the bad. There's no specific exercises that are for the purpose of conditioning the hands or the knuckles. Like the examples you gave, iron body and iron palm is a conditioning process. Western boxing doesn't have it. I'm not even sure bare knuckle fighters even do that type of conditioning.
This is usually the concept of hand conditioning from a western point of view. Notice how he makes the assumption that conditioning of the hand means hitting something hard with a hard strike. Where many Chinese martial arts start by hitting something relatively soft and eventually work up to the point where they can hit something hard.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Not strictly Western, but Russian martial arts like Systema make a big deal out of being able to safely absorb blows. Not so much like "iron body", more like being relaxed to absorb the impact and moving the body to dissipate it. as regards boxers,all the decent ones have well conditioned midsections, and often include med ball work involving impacts to the midsection, etc.

I made a conscious decision not to do any iron palm training as it didn't really match my personal goals, but my instructor has done numerous cycles over time and taken a number of students through it. It certainly hardens the bones but can make them more brittle also. He did some pretty hardcore iron palm leading up to an international full contact tournament in 1982, but still ended up breaking a hand in the semi final match (he still fought and won in the final). There is a saying that "iron palm drives you mad". Some guys of my acquaintance found it disrupted their sleep, etc.

Some may try to tell me "you guys obviously weren't doing the real iron palm" but ... here's a dollar, call someone who will GAF.

Some people think that iron palm training makes the hand unbreakable, it doesn't. It just makes the hand more resistant to breaking and being damage. My Sifu says that thing about people going crazy because of iron palm training is because it wasn't done properly. He mentioned that Qi Gong had to be part of the training because of the energy points in the hand will be damaged. Generally speaking when Iron Palm training is done it is damaging things other than your hand. I also choose not to do Iron Palm training but mainly because I don't have knowledgeable supervision and part because I don't think I need my hand conditioned to that level of durability.

 

[Flying Crane]

I second the notion that in at least some Chinese methods, a "circular" punch can have a fundamentally different meaning. In our Tibetan White Crane, we use a specific body rotation to drive our techniques, and a circular movement with the punch itself naturally drives off from the rotation. But we also drive our straight punches in this way, so even a straight punch is still circular.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I second the notion that in at least some Chinese methods, a "circular" punch can have a fundamentally different meaning. In our Tibetan White Crane, we use a specific body rotation to drive our techniques, and a circular movement with the punch itself naturally drives off from the rotation. But we also drive our straight punches in this way, so even a straight punch is still circular.

I forgot about that. The concept of circular in an eastern fighting system may not have the same definition as the western definition. Come to think of it, even the definition of "a punch" is different. In western boxing the discussion of a punch begins with the arm. In many Chinese martial arts the discussion of a punch begins from the root (legs and stance).

 

[paitingman]

With circular punches in kung fu the circular movement is used to redirect and to counter. if you throw a straight punch I'll use a circular motion to redirect that punch and to counter. The circular movement allows me to use the momentum of one circular movement to feed the movement of another circular movement.

In Jow Ga the fist is not mad the same way as it is made in boxing. We do not wrap the thumb around the knuckles and this allows us to hit with the 2 different sets of knuckles (the knuckles boxers hit with and the knuckles we use to knock on a door) and the flat part of the fist which is made of the palm and knuckle. Making a fist this ways changes the alignment of the bones in the hand. Shown in the video below

Our hooks which are in a similar motion as the hooks that he has shown. We throw our hooks in a forward facing stance and a side ways stance. Our techniques when using these hooks target the soft and vital areas of the head. It is my belief that the founder of Jow Ga fought a lot of Wing Chun fighters as our techniques seem to mess up the concept of A to B being the fastest route. A to B is only the fastest route if B does not move before the hit. If I throw a circular punch at the same time you throw a linear punch then I can land my punch first provided that I move in a different position. In the video below you can see a circular punch beat a direct punch by moving B

The other thing about the circular punches of eastern systems is that they have a tendency to go outside a persons field of vision so for a short period of time the person is unaware of where the punch is. Curve punches often strike around a person's guard. This can also be seen in the video. I don't hate or think that straight punches are weak. Because we use quite a few of straight punch. A circular system doesn't mean that all the punches used are circular.

When I watched the video my assumption was that he was only talking about the curve punches and straight punching from early western boxing. If so then that means some of his comments about circular punches won't apply to circular martial arts. The only thing that applies universal, is the theory about the straight linear punch, provided that B does not move while the punch is being executed.

Straight vs linear is often viewed with the assumption that one is better or faster than the other instead of viewing them as a tool of attack that works well this way or that way. If your goal is to hit the front of the face then the jab is best for the task. If the target is to the side of the head then the best attack is a circular one. A person can break their hand just as easily from a jab as they can from a circular punch. For Jow Ga, a person is probably more likely to damage their forearm and soft tissue areas on the arm from a circular punch as a result of hitting the elbow.

I think one of the main points in classical boxing is just that jabbing attacks are safer due to less variables and openings.

1. You don't open your guard up too much.
2. and it's such a quick, short movement that the variables are relatively low compared a big swing.

When I jab I've never worried about harming my hand because I am going to land relatively how I thought I would (timing and positioning wise) or I'm just not going to land. And it's not a very hard strike.

You are considerably more likely to break your hand with a hook or power punch than a jab. The more power, the more risk of injury if something goes wrong. Not to say you can't hurt your hand with a jab, but just not nearly as dangerous of a strike.

As far as the video, there's not great movement from either fighter. Obviously the wing chun dude wasn't doing so hot, but any decent boxer could've picked apart the choy li fut guy with just a good jab.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

A to B is only the fastest route if B does not move before the hit. If I throw a circular punch at the same time you throw a linear punch then I can land my punch first provided that I move in a different position.

Yep. I'm a big believer in moving offline while throwing circular strikes.

In western boxing the discussion of a punch begins with the arm.

Nope. Boxing punches start from the feet and should be taught that way.

 

[Danny T]

Nope. Boxing punches start from the feet and should be taught that way.

Yep!
Proper boxing does so.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think one of the main points in classical boxing is just that jabbing attacks are safer due to less variables and openings.

1. You don't open your guard up too much.
2. and it's such a quick, short movement that the variables are relatively low compared a big swing.

When I jab I've never worried about harming my hand because I am going to land relatively how I thought I would (timing and positioning wise) or I'm just not going to land. And it's not a very hard strike.

You are considerably more likely to break your hand with a hook or power punch than a jab. The more power, the more risk of injury if something goes wrong. Not to say you can't hurt your hand with a jab, but just not nearly as dangerous of a strike.

As far as the video, there's not great movement from either fighter. Obviously the wing chun dude wasn't doing so hot, but any decent boxer could've picked apart the choy li fut guy with just a good jab.

boxers follow the same rule by moving point B in the form of slipping a punch and countering.

I agree that there is less to worry about in terms of smashing the fist on elbows with a jab in terms of western boxing. Especially with upper cuts. I purposely back off on power for uppercut when my opponent's elbows are down. I try to sneak body shots because it's safer for my hands

As for the WC fighter he over committed on his forward movement. He punched with the expectation that his opponent would retreat in a linear manner without changing direction or moving off center.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Nope. Boxing punches start from the feet and should be taught that way

That's why I used the word "discussions" and not training.

 

[paitingman]

boxers follow the same rule by moving point B in the form of slipping a punch and countering.

I agree that there is less to worry about in terms of smashing the fist on elbows with a jab in terms of western boxing. Especially with upper cuts. I purposely back off on power for uppercut when my opponent's elbows are down. I try to sneak body shots because it's safer for my hands

As for the WC fighter he over committed on his forward movement. He punched with the expectation that his opponent would retreat in a linear manner without changing direction or moving off center.

I have been boxing for quite sometime and while I agree with your points on moving point b and using circular attacks,I do both quite often, I don't find them relevant.
I thought this thread was about Classical/Western Historical boxing and it's similarities to wing chun. Roy Jones Jr. videos are pretty much the furthest thing from that.
Slipping, moving, and hooking are very much modern boxing techniques as opposed to the Jabbing and Blocking game early english boxing was.

The effectiveness of slipping and hooking is never in question for me.
So I think what's interesting is why early boxers chose not to go this route.
I postulate that it was due to the nature of bareknuckle fighting in that specific time period.
If you're fighting a bareknuckle boxing match in the year 1760,
you risk getting maimed because you didn't cover your face from those bareknuckles,
or crippling yourself and having no work because you were swinging for the fences on some guys skull.
Hospitals can fix those today, but people were crippled all the time back then.
So they would sacrifice power and movement in return for careful cover and safer punches.

 

[drop bear]

I have been boxing for quite sometime and while I agree with your points on moving point b and using circular attacks,I do both quite often, I don't find them relevant.
I thought this thread was about Classical/Western Historical boxing and it's similarities to wing chun. Roy Jones Jr. videos are pretty much the furthest thing from that.
Slipping, moving, and hooking are very much modern boxing techniques as opposed to the Jabbing and Blocking game early english boxing was.

The effectiveness of slipping and hooking is never in question for me.
So I think what's interesting is why early boxers chose not to go this route.
I postulate that it was due to the nature of bareknuckle fighting in that specific time period.
If you're fighting a bareknuckle boxing match in the year 1760,
you risk getting maimed because you didn't cover your face from those bareknuckles,
or crippling yourself and having no work because you were swinging for the fences on some guys skull.
Hospitals can fix those today, but people were crippled all the time back then.
So they would sacrifice power and movement in return for careful cover and safer punches.

You think boxing styles today work on the principle that getting maimed is an acceptable loss or something?

Not sure there would be many boxers that agree with you there.

I have found that I slip and move more with smaller gloves precisely because the punches hurt more.

Why historical boxers did not. I have no idea.

 

[drop bear]

Here's some stuff I found on youtube from Martin Austwick aka "Oz" on circular vs. straight punching in historical English pugilism or bare knuckle boxing from the pre-modern era. As a WC practitioner, I found his observations based on written statements from boxers of those times to be fascinating and relevant to WC.

The outward similarities between early bare-knuckle boxing or what Austwick terms historical pugilism and Wing Chun which developed around the same time have been noted before.

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2008/0906/box_g_sullivan2_sw_400.jpg

http://www.ewingchun.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/full-size/profile-images/yip-man-08.jpg

Anyway, I thought the following video clips to be relevant and thought provoking:

If you move away from professional boxing which tends to be a bit less authodox and look at amateur boxing. You will see that mind set reflected.