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[bushidomartialarts]

we may need to agree to disagree.

if i'm reading you right (and i might not be) you see the emergence of the middle class and the improved condition of the working class as an allowance made by the privileged so they can produce more....give those proles just a little more food and they can work a longer day, give them a little more education and they can run devices that generate even more wealth.

what reaganonomists call the 'trickle' is just the scraps tossed down so that the wealth generator for the upper class keeps generating. the labor movement was about demanding larger scraps.

even if it's exactly that way, you still can't deny that the scraps are significantly larger than the scraps thrown to people in other sociopolitical systems.

i won't even try to argue that the scraps are pitiful compared to the meal up at the table. and the american 'free market' is terribly compromised by monopolies, trusts and government favoritism.

i will argue your point of mobility. it's much easier to enter into the privileged classes in a capitalist society than in other societies. just try moving from serf to landholder in a feudal system.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Strange, I just don't see the blurring between the parties you see. Somehow, I think it is a matter of personal perspective rather than actual similarities.

That's fine; I have no desire to debate it, and I certainly do not wish to get into our usual argument about the topic, that has always proven to be pointless, neither of us is willing to change or listen.

It is just how I feel and maybe it is just because during most my career I have worked in government in areas that have put me in a position to see WAY too much. And I have had to deal with the media WAY too many times to trust their honesty and desire to report REAL un-sensationalized news too.

The only example I will talk about is that when administrations change, whether from Democrat to Republican or Republican to Democrat (and I have seen both) it never matters how good someone is at their job or how much good they have done for the state or country, how many people they have helped or how much money they have saved, if they are not a member of the ruling political party they are generally history and soon to be replaced by a person that is of the correct party or a political pal. And it is generally done in a very nasty, sarcastic, unprofessional and sometimes public manor. I can happily say this has never affected me, I am to low on the totem pole at this point and protected by civil service law. But I have seen this and many other things happen over the years Dem or Rep it makes no difference.

I will not I sight any other examples and there are many from both sides of the political coin from simple abuse of power to theft to cover up to witch hunts and more. But since I still work in government and have to for many years to come I am done here.

 

[michaeledward]

I think that to assume that incompetence, and pettiness are only in part of government and the media is to delude oneself. What you describe exists everywhere.

I think that those who take the time and energy and to discuss crap here, are probably not those people who are petty or incompetent. But certainly, those who post here (or anywhere) are a minority of the population.

And we, who are involved and aware, can have differences of opinion, but we should be able to recognize the same evidence, even if we interpret it in different ways.

But, in 'not wanting to discuss it' - because of what ever the reason - kind of proves the point, doesn't it? I say, here's the evidence, prove me wrong. And I get back a 'I don't want to get back into that discussion again'. Is it a reluctance to challenge an existing paradigm?


EDIT - Found this article today - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/26/AR2006102601811.html - an interesting read - END EDIT

 

[FearlessFreep]

I think that those who take the time and energy and to discuss crap here, are probably not those people who are petty or incompetent. But certainly, those who post here (or anywhere) are a minority of the population.

I've never been on a message board yet that didn't hold the same opinion of itself and unfortunately I would have to say that most of them are wrong; but it ends up being a self-selecting session of back-patting

 

[michaeledward]

I've never been on a message board yet that didn't hold the same opinion of itself and unfortunately I would have to say that most of them are wrong; but it ends up being a self-selecting session of back-patting

Well, you may be right.
Maybe we do just have high opinions of ourselves. We are after all, all the same animal, right?

 

[Xue Sheng]

I think that to assume that incompetence, and pettiness are only in part of government and the media is to delude oneself. What you describe exists everywhere.

I think that those who take the time and energy and to discuss crap here, are probably not those people who are petty or incompetent. But certainly, those who post here (or anywhere) are a minority of the population.

And we, who are involved and aware, can have differences of opinion, but we should be able to recognize the same evidence, even if we interpret it in different ways.

But, in 'not wanting to discuss it' - because of what ever the reason - kind of proves the point, doesn't it? I say, here's the evidence, prove me wrong. And I get back a 'I don't want to get back into that discussion again'. Is it a reluctance to challenge an existing paradigm?


EDIT - Found this article today - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/26/AR2006102601811.html - an interesting read - END EDIT

I think to assume that I believe this only exists in government or to believe that the media is reporting an unbiased view or is reporting real news is deluding oneself as well.

And calling me deluded is a nice way to avoid addressing the possibility that ones chosen political party may be just as smarmy as ones chosen political whipping boys

As stated "since I still work in government" and have to for some time to come I cannot give you any other examples and if I did I certainly could not give you names which of course you would demand or otherwise it just wouldn't be true. And then since I was telling you first hand account and it was not reported in the media you so trust you would still say it wasn't true so why would I go further with this with you. It only puts me in a bad position as to where I work and the job I do and it would not be believed by you so it is therefore a waste of my time to do so.

And since I already know you will listen to nothing I say or anyone else says that is contradictory to your stance or belief and since I cannot say what I know due to trust and law, I am done.

Believe what you will, I wish it was all as straight forward, black & white and simple as you believe, but it is not. And I wish I could be as naive, but I can't.

Lets just say we do not agree, we certainly do not get along as far as MT is concerned and we probably wouldn't like each other much either.

I apologize for infringing upon your thread.

 

[michaeledward]

And since I already know you will listen to nothing I say or anyone else says that is contradictory to your stance or belief and since I cannot say what I know due to trust and law, I am done.

Believe what you will, I wish it was all as straight forward, black & white and simple as you believe, but it is not. And I wish I could be as naive, but I can't.

Lets just say we do not agree, we certainly do not get along as far as MT is concerned and we probably wouldn't like each other much either.

I apologize for infringing upon your thread.

Well, isn't that friendly.

I, of course, have no reason to believe that we - you and I - would not get along just fine, were we to meet.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well, isn't that friendly.

I, of course, have no reason to believe that we - you and I - would not get along just fine, were we to meet.

 

[michaeledward]

This just in from Keith Olbermann.

An amusing way to spend the next seven minutes.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/