Starting over with belts, yes, but techniques?

[Nightingale]

I chose to start over when I switched from one kenpo school to another. The other school taught a modification of the EPAK system that didn't have all the forms, sets, and techniques (90 some odd techs instead of 154). I tested for yellow belt a few weeks ago.

My instructor said "Keep the brown belt if you want. We don't take away anyone's rank here, because that's disrespecting your other instructor. Keep it, change it for a white belt, its up to you."

After talking with him, it was agreed that no matter what rank I was wearing, we would start teaching the system over from scratch, to make sure that we filled in all the gaps. We didn't want to just start at brown belt stuff, because none of the yellow belt techniques were included in the other system, so I didn't know any of the basic stuff.

However, my instructor would never refuse to let me participate if the class was working on say...short 3, because even though its not an orange belt form, I already know it. Ditto for techniques.

Overall, its been a really good balance for what could've been a pretty tough or awkward situation. My instructors have really handled it well and I appreciate that. (Thanks, Mr. G and Mr. D!)

Nightingale

 

[jfarnsworth]

I think you should put a white belt back on and let the instructor advance you as they see fit. The very first day I stepped into the kenpo studio I wore a white belt. Bought a new gi, my instructor nor I ever questioned the white belt. I did however advance faster than most people. Most of all those promotions came from desire to learn the system in a whole. Anyway wear a white belt and let the instructor do their job.

 

[Nightingale]

so you're saying that if you go from one kenpo school to another kenpo school, you should start over?

 

[jfarnsworth]

Well, if your going from one kenpo school to another that might be a little different story. I went from TKD to kenpo. Very very rarely did I ever wear my other gi and belt again after I joined the kenpo system. Although some kenpo schools out there have different formats, requirements etc. then maybe it should be between the student and the instructor. The requirements I had only covers 150 techs. only the first set of sets, all basics, no sparring techniques, short 1-3/long forms from 1 - 6. Help any? Once again this is just me personally, I am only one person.

 

[Shinzu]

i would not start an experienced student from another style completely over unless his/her technique needed it. i would respect that they have trained before and respect the knowledge that they have aquired.

the belt rank is a different story, but the skill level can never be replaced...just modified.

 

[karatekid1975]

I agree, Shinzu. My TSD instructor was like you. If a black belt came from another style that was similar (like TKD or something), he would let them keep their rank. He would allow them time to learn the TSD way, then re-test them for the same rank in TSD. Or if they were a color belt in another style, he would start them at white belt, but he would double test or whatever till they got to their previous rank. If they were ranked in another art and didn't seem like it, he would definitely hold them back. He was big into technique. If their technique wasn't there, then he would definitely make them wait.

 

[Angus]

Originally posted by Shinzu

the belt rank is a different story, but the skill level can never be replaced...just modified.

That was my initial point, just wasn't expressed as succintly. I would still expect to take as long as any other student to earn the next belt, starting from the beginning.

 

[Senfeng]

I went from a family style to TKD to Gung Fu (with a 5 and 12 year gap in between). In TKD, I had to start with all of the other white belts. I knew the basic front, round house, side, etc. kicks. I learned them before I could ride a bike. So I have to say that the first few months were really boring. The only thing I really had to learn were some of the slight modifications to the puches/kicks and the katas. It took a while before I was able to spar with some of the higher belts.

When I joined Gung Fu, my instructor had to teach me the basics. I felt like I was holding up the class, but eventually I got the hang of it. Even though some of my classmates have been training longer than me, I'm still allowed to participate in the techniques that I can handle. He usually begins by showing us the basics technique, then he modifies it per person or pair.

So, yes. I had to start from the beginning, but if I thought that I could handle more or if my instructor thought that I could handle more, he usually let me.

Personally, I like the Gung Fu system of learning better. It was more focussed on my learning ability and current skill.

 

[Shinzu]

i don't see a problem with starting over if it is a different style that you are not famliar with. for example... i started to train in pai lum tao kung fu... although i was a white sash the instructor knew i was skilled in other arts. the kicks and punches were different so i needed to adjust my techniques. this caused me to start all over. no big deal in my opinion.

unfortunately i found out that it just wasn't my type of art, although it is a beautiful one.

 

[Antares33]

I see no reason to give a student preferential treatment simply because of proficiency in another art. If the student's previous experience allows him/her to advance faster than most students, so be it.


I don't really see the point in the whole, start over in terms of belt rank, but allow the student to participate in advanced techniques thing, but that probably just has to do with the way my school is run, and my complete lack of knowledge on how other schools work.

 

[SMAC]

I think its important to evaluate why you are training at a different club. If it is that similar to the style you have your basis in and you are frustrated by being 'held back' then why are you doing it. If on the other hand it is very different, be prepared to go from scratch, you obviously have to.
Personally i am a fan of cross training. Alot of emphasis has been put on how the instructor will judge you and improve you to their standards. I keep an open mind and would allow a proficient student to teach me how, why when they do a particular technique differently.
I think it is wrong to keep back a student who has done the same/similar style before if they deserve more credit for their abilities.

 

[TkdWarrior]

normally shifting from one striking art to other... is not a big problem...when u r BB in one style...u shouldn't mind starting from white belt as u'll be progressing far quickly than u'll do in ur first style...cuz u already hav Martial mind...
after studying 6.5 yrs in External styles when i started in taichi i had really serious probs...because i didn't understand the sooooong thing(now i understand but couldn't get it ) it was quite hard then i learn to let it flow...
quite a good experience...
-TkdWarrior-

 

[Kenpomachine]

I'm talking about my experience here. When I return to the martial arts after 12 years, I first talked to my instructors as to what belt I should wear, as I remember almost nothing of the system. They told me to wear my old belt, and then wait until I have all the material for the test. They've also done this when changing from the shorter program, as in nightingale's case, to the complete LTKKA 's.
When I moved to TKD for a time, I began from scratch, though the instructor wasn't particular to changing my whole way of kicking. It was like a fusing/synthesis of the two systems in what was similar. I learnt a lot which I put into use when returning to kenpo, somethings that I didn't notice before, or that were given for granted.

But it's mainly to do with the instructor. If they're good, you'll learn a lot whichever way he/she chose to teach you. That's for sure

 

[Nightingale]

They told me I could wear my old belt if I wanted. It was my choice to remove it, and I did so because I felt awkward lining up by rank in front of all these folks who knew more katas and techniques than I did, and could basically kick my ***. I figure that if you're a brown belt and you're getting blue belts kicking your ***, it might be time to demote yourself.

 

[Kenpomachine]

First: the example in which I mentioned you was the whole school moving from a modified kenpo system to the LTKKA system.

Second: I felt strange, but I also understood the instructor position in my case. I wasn't a white belt either, as I remembered part of the program and have the basics. My body remembered things my mind didn't. So I was in a kind of limbo for part of a year, until I could test for blue.

Btw, the white and yellow belts would probably feel you were cheating them or something. You must have retained your technique level regardless the program involved, and it isn't the same as moving to another martial art. IMHO.

 

[Kenpomachine]

Originally posted by nightingale8472
it might be time to demote yourself.

I forget to tell I never sewn my blue stripe in the purple belt (it was obtained when i was a child)

 

[Nightingale]

Btw, the white and yellow belts would probably feel you were cheating them or something. You must have retained your technique level regardless the program involved, and it isn't the same as moving to another martial art. IMHO. [/B]

nah. they all know the circumstances, and know that from my prior training, I may advance a little quicker, because I already know some of the stuff. They also see how frustrating it is for me, because a lot of the stuff is similar, but not the same, and its just similar enough for me to do it wrong, because I've done it wrong thousands of times over the last 14 years, and learning something that is just similar enough to mess you up is really aggravating.

 

[Kenpomachine]

My instructor position on this is to learn the techniques as if they were a whole different bunch of techniques

 

[Nightingale]

that's what I've been trying to do... it isn't easy, tho.

for example, in one technique, I learned everything but the final move. I was taught to stop and cross out before the last move (clutching feathers didn't have the hammerfist at the end). So its exactly the same, and I have a tendency to not do the last move.

 

[KennethKu]

SGM Ed Parker would let you pass, I pressume. I don't think he would be that particular about such minor discrepancy in techniques, if I understand his later years philosophy in Kenpo correctly.