Standing Practice

[Xue Sheng]

I’m talking about Wuji, Zhan Zhuang and Santi Shi

First sorry if this sounds confusing I am in a hurry and want to post this, I will explain more later if necessary and put links in so the main postures can be seen in picture form.

I have been doing a lot of this lately since I have decided to focus more on Xingyiquan and I have been thinking about what I am experiencing, what I have been taught and what I have read.

My taiji Sifu, when I talked to him about standing practice said that you should take time between each one, a few minutes (5 to 10) to let things settle before you start another. But he saw no real problem with going (slowly) from Wuji to Zhan Zhuang.

My Xingyiquan Sifu always had us go from Wuji to Santi Shi.

I have also read, I believe it was from a Yiquan article, that you should take time (a lot of time - hours) between standing postures.

I have read recently about going form Wuji to Santi and that there were 2 postures in between

Wuji Shi > Taiji Shi > Liangyi Shi > Santi Shi.

However Taiji Shi and Liangyi Shi are more like transitional moves than actual postures but they are to be done correctly for the transition.

I have been doing Wuji before just about everything.

I realized today, after reading and rereading and following a chapter in Di Guoyong’s book that he is going from Zhan Zhuang to Wuji.

This made me think and I tried this today

Zhang Zhuang to Wuji Shi to Taiji Shi to Liangyi Shi to Santi Shi

This takes a while and I have to say the energy and the posture awareness are amazing. I took no breaks in between and I just flowed from one to the other ending with the usual Santi Shi standing practice but it was a bit surprising based on things I have been doing, reading and been told up to now.

Anyone else do standing practice and if so how do you go form one posture to another and what postures are they?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Wuji Shi - Taiji Shi - Liangyi Shi - Santi Shi


Zhan Zhuang

Zhan Zhuang

http://www.chenqiang.net/images/zhan zhuang.jpg
Note: There are various forms of Zhan Zhaung but I am talking about the form above

 

[East Winds]

Xue Sheng,

I consider Wu Ji to be the “entry level” of Zhang Zhuang and the starting posture for all other Zhang Zhuang, Yi Chuan and Santi Shi postures. I consider the five basic Zhan Zhuang postures (including Cheng Bao Zhuang, or the posture in your illustrations) to be health postures. I think you need to move into Yi Chuan (Da Cheng Chuan) and Santi Shi postures to develop the martial and real energy promoting aspects. I personally always start with Wu Ji then move through the four other Zhan Zhuang postures before moving on to the Yi Chuan (Da Cheng Chuan) postures. When I learned basic Zhan Zhuang and then Da Cheng Chuan from Master Lam Kam Chuen he always said there were two methods of learning. The Fire method and the Water method. In the Fire method you assumed a posture or series of postures and maintained them for a fixed time (say 30 minutes) despite whatever was happening to your mind or body. The Water method you only maintained the posture for as long as you could maintain concentration. Once you had lost concentration on what you were doing, there was no point in continuing the posture and therefore you should stop. That might be for as short a period as 2 minutes!! He said both systems had their advantages. I must admit he trained us in the fire method! Sometimes maintaining Cheng Bao Zhuang posture for up to an hour. He said there was no set sequence of postures and you could combine as many or a few as you wanted provided you always started and finished with Wu Ji.

Incidentally my first introduction to Zhan Zhuang was from Moy Lin Shin in the TTCS. The only good thing I learned from TTCS.


Very best wishes

 

[ggg214]

Xue Sheng

in recent two years, my training is all related to zhanzhuang.
at first sight on your article, i think zhanzhuang contains wuji. when i saw you pic, i know you refer the zhanzhuang to bao qiu zhuang（抱球桩 or 撑抱桩）.that's ok!
my zhan zhuang contains only three postures, Xu Bu Zhuang (虚步&#26729, gong bu zhuang（弓步桩）and ma bu zhuang （马步桩）. i think my training is more like East Winds' fire methods. no time requirement, but concentration. to make your whole body in the taiji circle will burn out your body's engergy as well as your mind's energy. it's a hard work.
IMO, Yi quan's zhan zhuang is different, it requires mind more, called （假借）,through imaginating your self in some certain situations.
what's your opinion?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Sorry I have been experimenting with this a bit and wanted to see what I felt before getting back to this.

Xue Sheng,

I consider Wu Ji to be the “entry level” of Zhang Zhuang and the starting posture for all other Zhang Zhuang, Yi Chuan and Santi Shi postures. I consider the five basic Zhan Zhuang postures (including Cheng Bao Zhuang, or the posture in your illustrations) to be health postures. I think you need to move into Yi Chuan (Da Cheng Chuan) and Santi Shi postures to develop the martial and real energy promoting aspects. I personally always start with Wu Ji then move through the four other Zhan Zhuang postures before moving on to the Yi Chuan (Da Cheng Chuan) postures. When I learned basic Zhan Zhuang and then Da Cheng Chuan from Master Lam Kam Chuen he always said there were two methods of learning. The Fire method and the Water method. In the Fire method you assumed a posture or series of postures and maintained them for a fixed time (say 30 minutes) despite whatever was happening to your mind or body. The Water method you only maintained the posture for as long as you could maintain concentration. Once you had lost concentration on what you were doing, there was no point in continuing the posture and therefore you should stop. That might be for as short a period as 2 minutes!! He said both systems had their advantages. I must admit he trained us in the fire method! Sometimes maintaining Cheng Bao Zhuang posture for up to an hour. He said there was no set sequence of postures and you could combine as many or a few as you wanted provided you always started and finished with Wu Ji.

Incidentally my first introduction to Zhan Zhuang was from Moy Lin Shin in the TTCS. The only good thing I learned from TTCS.


Very best wishes

Agreed Wuji is part of Zhan Zhuang and I look at Wuji being the beginning and kind of a cool down (sorry I cold not think of a better term) for Zhan Zhuang at the moment. And I do see zhan zhuang as being for health but I can also see the martial aspects as well and I am not training Yiquan but Xingyiquan when I am doing these stances. But I do realize Yiquan goes much deeper into Zhan Zhuang. Santi Shi is also for health and martial aspects of the training since Santi is the Foundation of the foundation of Xingyiquan. But it is very much training the internal as well.

And I have been, without knowing what to call it till now (thanks) been training this with both the Fire and Water Method but mostly the fire method.

Also I am beginning to feel it is more what works for you or what is needed for your training when it comes to how to stand in these postures and if you stand in only one or tie them together. However I do agree with my Taiji sifu that you should not be “jumping” from one to the other. A slow transition works best for me.

I have found that Wuji (feet apart)>Zhan Zhuang>Wuji (feet together)> Santi shi (left)>Santi Shi Right>Wuji is working for me at the moment. However as my Santi Shi time increases I do not think I will have time for this in this pattern and Wuji and Zhan Zhuang will have to be separated. There are also other more advanced standing postures in Xingyiquan but I am far from ready for those.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue Sheng

in recent two years, my training is all related to zhanzhuang.
at first sight on your article, i think zhanzhuang contains wuji. when i saw you pic, i know you refer the zhanzhuang to bao qiu zhuang（抱球桩 or 撑抱桩）.that's ok!
my zhan zhuang contains only three postures, Xu Bu Zhuang (虚步&#26729, gong bu zhuang（弓步桩）and ma bu zhuang （马步桩）. i think my training is more like East Winds' fire methods. no time requirement, but concentration. to make your whole body in the taiji circle will burn out your body's engergy as well as your mind's energy. it's a hard work.
IMO, Yi quan's zhan zhuang is different, it requires mind more, called （假借）,through imaginating your self in some certain situations.
what's your opinion?

Ma Bu Zhuang （马步桩） I am not doing at all at the moment but I use to

But I feel (and I have very little experience with Yiquan) that Xingyiquan Santi Shi requires more mind as well and that it helps, at higher levels than I, to think of certain situation and how you move Qi where needed. I would not doubt that Yiquan is much the same. And as I said in the previous post I do beleive I am doing more the Fire method than water.

 

[mograph]

Our Yiquan sifu (William Chau) has us do four Zhan Zhuang postures, 10 minutes each, then 5 minutes with back-of-wrists on kidneys. Chau Sifu moves our hands into position if we don't move them ourselves. Most of the time we do these:
1) palms down, hands at waist level, arms rounded
2) holding the ball at lower dan tien
3) palms down, hands at (approximately) sternum level, arms wider than in #1
4) hands beside hipbones, arms rounds, palms either facing back, or facing body.

Every now and then we do different postures -- sorry, I don't know their names. Last week we did the eight postures, 5 minutes each. To change the postures, Chau Sifu demonstrated, moving his arms slowly as we followed his lead. Then he adjusted us if necessary.

 

[East Winds]

Here is an excellent book introducing the first few martial postures of Yiquan. His previous book "The Way of Healing" introduces the first 5 postures of Zhan Zhuang.

I studied Da Cheng Chuan (Yiquan) with Master Lam for a couple of years. He is student a of Yu Yong Nian who was a student of Wang Xiang Zhai.

http://www.amazon.com/Chi-Kung-Kam-Chuen-Lam/dp/0736044809

And yes a smooth slow transition between postures is recommended. The Zhan Zhuang postures are a very powerful series of stances and Xue Xheng, you are correct, the Yiquan postures are very much a mind set. Zhan Zhuang and Yiquan are the key to the generation internal power.

Very best wishes

 

[Xue Sheng]

Just to note the 2 higher level Xingyiquan standing postures are

jiàng lóng zhuāng which I beleive is also found in Yiquan as is fú hŭ zhuāng
http://www.taichiunion.com/magazine/magimages/Y_fu_hu.jpg

 

[mograph]

I second the book recommendation, East Winds.

 

[Xue Sheng]

East Winds & mograph

I picked up the book "Chi Kung: Way of Power"

Thanks for the suggestion.

Also I have found that of late Santi is best done separate from Zhan Zhuang or at least with a few minute break in between them.

Wuji to Zhan Zhuang or Wuji to Santi works well but much earlier this week something changed during my practice and I found that going form Zhan Zhuang to Santi just did not seem to work. Of course I didn't do any standing for a few days after that but today when I did train standing I separated them and things went rather well.

Also I figured out, with help, I was approaching Santi training incorrectly (posture good, breathing wrong for my level) but I will post more on that later.

 

[marlon]

Here is an excellent book introducing the first few martial postures of Yiquan. His previous book "The Way of Healing" introduces the first 5 postures of Zhan Zhuang.

I studied Da Cheng Chuan (Yiquan) with Master Lam for a couple of years. He is student a of Yu Yong Nian who was a student of Wang Xiang Zhai.

http://www.amazon.com/Chi-Kung-Kam-Chuen-Lam/dp/0736044809

And yes a smooth slow transition between postures is recommended. The Zhan Zhuang postures are a very powerful series of stances and Xue Xheng, you are correct, the Yiquan postures are very much a mind set. Zhan Zhuang and Yiquan are the key to the generation internal power.

Very best wishes

I have master Lam's book...it is the best i ever read on standing practice!!! I had no idea he was your teacher Eastwinds. If you ever feel so inclined let him know that i have not even arrieved far into the practices given in the book although i have been at it for years and my health and power has increased exponentially. i have given these exercies (ther beginner ones) to reiki clients and have had great success! Thank him for me

respectfully,
marlon

 

[East Winds]

marlon,

It is now some time since I worked with Master Lam - He is based in London and I am based in Scotland (some 450 miles apart). But yes his 4 books in "The Way Of" series are quite outstanding. The first was The Way of Energy, the second was The Way of Healing, the third was the Way of Power and his last is a delightful book The Way of Tea - The Sublime art of Oriental Tea Drinking!!!!!

Keep up the Zhan Zhuang study - it is a wonderful art.


Very best wishes

 

[Live True]

East Winds and all,
I know a book is not an adequate substitute for a good teacher, and so I ask this question in all seriousness and humility.

In another forum specifically on Uechi Ryu, my art, we were discussing forms of meditation and ways to support stronger, more focused practice. Zhang Zhuang or standing practice was mentioned because of the benefits it provides in posture, focus, strength, and (eventually) speed. I am intrigued by this, but am also relatively new in Uechi, so I don't want to confuse my training by starting another art at the same time (not to mention expense, at this time).

However, I was wondering if the Master Lam books would be a good way for me to learn some basics and practice them as a compliment to my current art, and then seek out a qualified teacher once I have attained more solid footing in my own art. Any recommendations on resources and if this would be a good idea are very welcome!
Thank you!

 

[East Winds]

Live True,

As you have already realised, there is no substitute for a teacher, but with that in mind, yes, Master Lam's books will give you a basic introduction to standing practise. However you will miss out on the subtle adjustments that a knowledgeable teacher can make that can make all the difference between "just standing" and Zhan Zhuang. Master Lam's book "The Way of Healing" ISBN 1-85675-079-5 is a good basic introduction which can be followed up with the more advanced version "The Way of Power" (already mentioned on this post).

Vey best wishes

 

[Live True]

Thank you East Winds. I will start here, and then seek a good teacher next year, once I've got more foundation in my current art. I realize this means unlearning bad habits, but I'm hoping the benefits will justify the retraining.

 

[marlon]

East Winds & mograph

I picked up the book "Chi Kung: Way of Power"

Thanks for the suggestion.

Also I have found that of late Santi is best done separate from Zhan Zhuang or at least with a few minute break in between them.

Wuji to Zhan Zhuang or Wuji to Santi works well but much earlier this week something changed during my practice and I found that going form Zhan Zhuang to Santi just did not seem to work. Of course I didn't do any standing for a few days after that but today when I did train standing I separated them and things went rather well.

Also I figured out, with help, I was approaching Santi training incorrectly (posture good, breathing wrong for my level) but I will post more on that later.

XS, you never got back to on the breathing, if you could it would be much appreciated. I love EW signature about breathing however i would really love these dicussions to address breathing more directly, if possible

Thanks

marlon

 

[Xue Sheng]

XS, you never got back to on the breathing, if you could it would be much appreciated. I love EW signature about breathing however i would really love these dicussions to address breathing more directly, if possible

Thanks

marlon

My sifu has said that everytime his sifu was asked about breathing he said a similar thing as EW signature. Tung Sigung always said "Yes you should"

Actually I did a bit here
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=67531
But since I mentioned it here I should have also put something here too.

Xingyiquan has various levels one should train, basically beginner, intermediate and advanced. I discovered after reading about this I realized the fact I had trained taijiquan for so long that my approach to breathing, although correct for taiji, was incorrect for my level (beginner) in Xingyiquan.

The levels I am talking about are Ming Jin (beginner), An Jin (intermediate) and Hua Jin (advanced). But to be honest I am not exactly sure calling those levels is the correct thing to do but for sake of explanation I will use those.

While I was training santi I was breathing much like I might in a Taijiquan qigong form which more like hua jin which they call Fetal Breathing which is described as in and out at will. Continuous, Delicate and Even, Deep and Long. When in fact my level of Xingyiquan is Ming Jin since I am just trying to understand the posture, the breathing as it applies to the posture and form, and the muscles as they relax in the posture, etc. So for me to maintain breathing as Hua Jin while my legs hurt and shake and my shoulders start to ach becomes rather difficult and tended to break down fast. It is when I found out about this that I changed to a Ming Jin which is expressed externally it is a long breath in, short breath out, brief and powerful. Once I switch to that I was able to focus on the posture itself and let the breath follow. The middle level (if it is actually a level) is An Jin where the breath is expressed internally, long breath in long breath out, soft becoming delicate.

EDIT

Note:

Proper translation of; Ming Jen is Obvious Power, An Jin is Hidden Power, Hua Jin is Neutralizing power. Not beginner intermediate and advanced

 

[marlon]

My sifu has said that everytime his sifu was asked about breathing he said a similar thing as EW signature. Tung Sigung always said "Yes you should"

Actually I did a bit here

But since I mentioned it here I should have also put something here too.

Xingyiquan has various levels one should train, basically beginner, intermediate and advanced. I discovered after reading about this I realized the fact I had trained taijiquan for so long that my approach to breathing, although correct for taiji, was incorrect for my level (beginner) in Xingyiquan.

The levels I am talking about are Ming Jin (beginner), An Jin (intermediate) and Hua Jin (advanced). But to be honest I am not exactly sure calling those levels is the correct thing to do but for sake of explanation I will use those.

While I was training santi I was breathing much like I might in a Taijiquan qigong form which more like hua jin which they call Fetal Breathing which is described as in and out at will. Continuous, Delicate and Even, Deep and Long. When in fact my level of Xingyiquan is Ming Jin since I am just trying to understand the posture, the breathing as it applies to the posture and form, and the muscles as they relax in the posture, etc. So for me to maintain breathing as Hua Jin while my legs hurt and shake and my shoulders start to ach becomes rather difficult and tended to break down fast. It is when I found out about this that I changed to a Ming Jin which is expressed externally it is a long breath in, short breath out, brief and powerful. Once I switch to that I was able to focus on the posture itself and let the breath follow. The middle level (if it is actually a level) is An Jin where the breath is expressed internally, long breath in long breath out, soft becoming delicate.

EDIT

Note:

Proper translation of; Ming Jen is Obvious Power, An Jin is Hidden Power, Hua Jin is Neutralizing power. Not beginner intermediate and advanced

thank you very much. it is interesting that the breathingi was taught in my external art was in and out equal and sharp and our exercises gradually moved us to sharp and short in and long, delicate , soft and slow out. CMC in his books mentions long, soft, delicate and slow in and out continuous and equal. this is what i use now. i still teach the way i was taught but my end point is now the CMC...hua jin type breathing. considering your translations for martial applications should one be using different breathing patterns as one fights,depending on what is happening in the fight or what you wish to make happen?

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[Xue Sheng]

thank you very much. it is interesting that the breathingi was taught in my external art was in and out equal and sharp and our exercises gradually moved us to sharp and short in and long, delicate , soft and slow out. CMC in his books mentions long, soft, delicate and slow in and out continuous and equal. this is what i use now. i still teach the way i was taught but my end point is now the CMC...hua jin type breathing. considering your translations for martial applications should one be using different breathing patterns as one fights,depending on what is happening in the fight or what you wish to make happen?

Respectfully,
Marlon

As to different breathing patterns as one fights, IMO, no but it is at times inevitable.

My last Xingyiquan Sifu was constantly trying to get us to stop matching what we do to our breath. It seems that just about everyone on attack, throwing a punch or a kick or striking in anyway tends to exhale. My Sifu was yelling at us one day because we were drilling strikes based on the 5 elements forms (Piquan, Bengquan, Zuanquan, Paoquan, Hengquan) and we were all exhaling on the strike. He absolutely did not want us to do that, we needed to be able to hit with power regardless of inhale, exhale or anywhere in between. He said that if he were ever fighting or sparing someone that only hit on exhale he would immediately attack them right after the exhale since they would have no power then. Basically if he figured out anyone’s breathing patterns he would use hat to his advantage.

The idea is to maintain relaxed, calm breathing. I have had some fairly intense tuishou training with my 70+ year old taijiquan sifu and I generally end up needing to breath much harder than him. His breathing never seems to change