stances

[mastercole]

err...not a TKD guy, but I don't think this is a good way of looking at it. A ML Pitcher may maximize how fast he throws a ball, but he sacrifices stability and is completely off balance and open at the end of the throw. If you tried to fight this way, if that punch missed you would be immediately slaughtered.

It was comparison of using an unstable stance to make maximum power, not that you should take the pose of a pitcher after a punch.

Maximizing power at the complete expense of stability, mobility, safety/recovery, is not a good tradeoff.

I never said it was at the expense of safety/recovery, you did. The greatest punchers in the world don't follow your advise, you might want to reconsider, or hang around elite fighters and learn what they do.

Mike Tyson, in his prime, one of the greatest power punchers in boxing history
During fighting

6:22 in above video, Mike takes high stance, most of his mass leaves the ground at impact. Knockout

During training http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A42BzG80XWk&feature=related

2:30 in above video Mike rising up to high stance upon impact
3:44 next, taking most unstable stance possible, lifting one foot off the ground during impact

In my opinion, the best answer lies in how you use your stances to deliver your techniques. I don't know the TKD stances, but when you throw a punch, if you properly use the legs to drive your stance changes while powering your punch, that can give you an extremely powerful punch,

You contradict your earlier statement with "your stance changes while powering your punches." Changing your stance while powering your punch means your punching from an unstable position.

while keeping you in a position from which you can recover and still defend yourself. You do not end up open and a sitting duck.

Fighters recover very well after striking their opponent during a higher, unstable stance. Again, refer to the first video at 6:22.

 

[lifespantkd]

For those of you who like to ponder the physics of Taekwondo (or other martial arts), here are a few related papers with varying degrees of complexity of analysis:

http://www.phys.ttu.edu/~cmyles/Phys5306/Papers/2004/Physics%20of%20Martial%20Arts.doc

http://www.kattaekwondo.com/Board Breaking.doc

http://www.itkd.co.nz/reference/essays/12-study_of_turning_kick.pdf

Cynthia

 

[mastercole]

Check out Mike Tyson's footwork and stance during the impact of his punch that knocks out Carl "The Truth" Williams. At the moment of impact, Tyson's stance goes so high, his feet come completely off the mat. Watch at 10:52 and then repeated from a better angle at 11:13

 

[Indie12]

I got them from my 42 years of martial arts experience You would have to have an good understanding of Kukkiwon Taekwondo to understand these approximate numbers, if you research the Kukkiwon, and any other Taekwondo groups curriculum, you can learn about it. Let me know what you find out.

Also, the WTF does not have a curriculum. The WTF is basically a tournament committee. Maybe you meant to type Kukkiwon?

Hello,

Yes I do understand Kukkiwon Taekwondo as I am a former member of it myself. I looked into the stats and could not locate what your referring to, (maybe a link?)
WTF is an organization, Kukkiwon sets the rules and regulations. But yes, Kukkiwon is what I meant to say. Thank You!

Well I have over 23 years of Martial Arts experience, including Tae Kwon Do (On both ends of the aisle). Just out of curiosity, you claim to be involved with Kukkiwon TKD, yet you said that TKD is more punching, then kicking, do you standby that assessment? Especially with Kukkiwon credentials?

 

[Indie12]

Thank you for the kind words, the feeling is mutual, Sir.

Just to clarify: I am stating that the maximum potential power/energy of a punch **on impact** can only be achieved while the body is in a higher, more unstable stance. It maybe slightly rising, or slightly falling (sinewave), or in place, or moving forward, and even backward, but on **impact**, it must be unstable ---- with the ground ---- to achieve it's maximum potential energy.

Of course to achieve that maximum potential, we need to launch from a stable object, like the ground.

Consider this, the more MASS you add at impact, all other factors remaining the same, the more energy you apply to the target. If that MASS is rooted to the ground during impact, it is only partially being applied against the target. If that MASS was launched from the ground, at the point of being nearly airborne and being in correct alignment on impact, a greater percentage of MASS would be applied against the target, with less rooted to the ground.

The greater the degree of ACCELERATION you have at impact, all other factors remaining the same, the more energy you apply to the target. The more rooted or stable you are to the ground, the less potential you have for acceleration. The more unstable you become, the greater your potential for acceleration.

You are referring to only standup techniques, correect?

 

[Indie12]

Shotokan is a Japanese style.

Technically true, but it's debateable...

Most forms of Karate (including Shotokan) originated in Okinawa prior to Japanese influence.

 

[ATC]

...WTF is an organization, Kukkiwon sets the rules and regulations...

1. WTF is the sport governing body that set the rules andregulations for the sport of Olympic TKD.
2. Kukkiwon is oneTaekwondo governing organization that promote test regulations and certify Black Belts.

 

[Flying Crane]

Personally, I think we're saying the same thing! How you drive the punch with your body determines how much mass is propelled with how much acceleration which determines how much force the punch produces. An actual analysis of the force vectors involved would require some sophisticated programming since we're not moving just a point of mass through space with no friction and no gravity, but Newton's second law is still at work.

Cynthia

we probably are saying the same thing, and Newton's law may be at work, but using it as a specific descriptor is incomplete and sort of over simplifies it.

It's just a pet peeve of mine, that's all. I've seen others make similar statements and while it's not exactly wrong, it's not quite right either. It gives me the impression that people are hunting for the perfect mathematical equation to describe the ideal punch, and I don't believe it's possible to do so. So I just point it out, that's all.

 

[Flying Crane]

It was comparison of using an unstable stance to make maximum power, not that you should take the pose of a pitcher after a punch.

thank you, that is the root of the issue. Some time ago, another poster here on MT threw around the idea of working with Olympic Shot Putters as a way of understanding and applying their power generation methods to a technique such as a palm heel. The idea didn't get detailed discussion, so to be fair I am not completely clear just what he was getting at. But the notion struck me as perhaps not the best way to go about it because, while the shot putter may get tremendous power, it comes thru a full body committment that is done to an inappropirate extent with regards to martial arts. In shot putting it is appropriate, because recovery and protection are not part of the issue. In martial arts, the end result would leave you dangerously exposed.

So when I saw the ML pitcher comment, I saw it as similar to the earlier shot putter comment, and hence my own comments.

thank you for clarifying what you were saying.

You contradict your earlier statement with "your stance changes while powering your punches." Changing your stance while powering your punch means your punching from an unstable position.

no. While I understand the stance changes within my system, I certainly do not begin from an unstable position. My initial stance is stable, and the transition I make is to another stable stance. It is the act of transitioning that creates the power, the work is done between the stances, during the change. But both stances are stable and safe.

But hey, this is a TKD thread and I'm not TKD so I won't butt in any further.

 

[lifespantkd]

Here's an article called, "Speed and Force in Selected Taekwondo Techniques": http://books.google.com/books?hl=en...nPnP7mJXbA63ibGE7eSy-2mdU#v=onepage&q&f=false. Note the different patterns (between techniques) of amount of variance of force explained by body mass, particularly in regard to the dominant vs non-dominant side. Note also the conclusions based on those patterns: "From the results of this study, it appears that taekwondo athletes have not been using their body mass adequately during the performance of various kicks and the reverse punch. This is especially true for the left side of the body, for which lower force values were recorded than for the right side in all techniques tested. The heavier the athlete, the more force is generated during the execution of the techniques. By the same token, if more of [the] athletes weight were engaged in kicking or punching, the resultant force would also be higher. A larger mass not only plays a role in contributing to a larger force, but also to a higher kinetic energy (see e.g., [9]). It is interesting to note, however, that BM or LBM were not always selected as force predictors. It is possible that weight of the striking mass, the hand/arm during punching and the leg during kicking, would have been better predictors of force instead of total body mass. Nevertheless, on the strength of these finding, the taekwondo coaches are advised to emphasize the use of body mass more in the execution of kicks and punches."

The rest of the conclusion is also worth reading. Well, the whole study is worth reading.

This article clearly supports the role of Newton's second law (F=m*a) in the execution of forceful techniques in Taekwondo and, hence, the importance of utilizing body position (which includes stance) to maximize speed (and acceleration) and the movement of mass so as to increase the force of the technique. With a different study design, many, many other analyses could have been done using other concepts from physics, including energy, impulse, power, inertia, momentum, and so on. The fact that other aspects of physics are also at work does not negate the fact that Newton's second law is at work, too.

Pieter, F. and Pieter, F. Speed and force in selected Taekwondo techniques. Biology of Sport. 12(4), 1995: 257-266.

Cynthia

 

[Earl Weiss]

Consider this, the more MASS you add at impact, all other factors remaining the same, the more energy you apply to the target. If that MASS is rooted to the ground during impact, it is only partially being applied against the target. If that MASS was launched from the ground, at the point of being nearly airborne and being in correct alignment on impact, a greater percentage of MASS would be applied against the target, with less rooted to the ground.

QUOTE]

OK, got it now and have to say I agree. I often teach my students to get the "Most bang for the buck" by having their body move "Into" the kick or punch. An example would be a skipping lead leg side kick verus a side kick where the support foot does not move from inception thru execution. The former would be less rooted or "stable" at impact them the former.

HAd someone once refer to this concept as "addeditive speed" (he may have made up the term.) Think of it like this. If the foot from a stationary position moves at 30 miles an hour, but you can have it move the same speed while skipping toward the object at 10 mph then in relation to the stationary object the foot is moving 40mph (OK so it probably does not ad up exactly, there may be some loss involved) thereby increasing the force thru the added speed. As Master Cole points out this ads to the mass as well.

 

[lifespantkd]

you claim to be involved with Kukkiwon TKD

Grandmaster Cole serves as Advisor to the Kukkiwon.

Cynthia

 

[mastercole]

Hello,

Yes I do understand Kukkiwon Taekwondo as I am a former member of it myself.

How complete is your understanding of Kukkiwon Taekwondo? When and how did you become a member?

I looked into the stats and could not locate what your referring to, (maybe a link?)

Did you happen to look in the official "Kukkiwon Taekwondo Textbook"? or was it some other source?

WTF is an organization, Kukkiwon sets the rules and regulations. But yes, Kukkiwon is what I meant to say. Thank You!

Both are organizations, but very separate organizations, and both have their own separate rules and regulations. WTF sets the rules and regulations of Taekwondo competition for its Member National Associations and international WTF competitions as the WTF is the International Federation (IF) for Taekwondo according to the rules and regulations of the International Olympic Committee (IOC)

The Kukkiwon, as the World Taekwondo Headquarters, conducts Taekwondo research, sets Taekwondo standards, trains, test and certifies instructors and leaders, trains, test and certifies rank (poom and dan), trains, test and certifies Hanmadang Referees, Poomsae Referees, and conducts other educations activities, world wide.

Well I have over 23 years of Martial Arts experience, including Tae Kwon Do (On both ends of the aisle).
Just out of curiosity, you claim to be involved with Kukkiwon TKD, yet you said that TKD is more punching, then kicking, do you standby that assessment? Especially with Kukkiwon credentials?

I stand by everything that I write.

But I am curious, where did you come up with 80% kicking and 20% hand strikes for Taekwondo?

 

[lifespantkd]

HAd someone once refer to this concept as "addeditive speed" (he may have made up the term.) Think of it like this. If the foot from a stationary position moves at 30 miles an hour, but you can have it move the same speed while skipping toward the object at 10 mph then in relation to the stationary object the foot is moving 40mph (OK so it probably does not ad up exactly, there may be some loss involved) thereby increasing the force thru the added speed. As Master Cole points out this ads to the mass as well.

Yes, this is basically correct. To fine tune it just a little, speed is a scalar quantity because it has no direction. Velocity is speed in a particular direction, so it is a vector quantity. Vectors that represent the same type of quantity can be added. (Hence the term "additive speed" that you heard.) When the velocity toward the target (relative to the body) of the arm/leg that is striking/kicking is added to the component of the velocity of the body that is also moving toward the target, the overall (additive) velocity of the strike/kick as it moves toward the target is greater. So, to maximize the effect of this addition, the velocity of the strike/kick and the velocity of the body must both be moving in the same direction. (For example, moving the body to the left while striking forward won't add any of the body's velocity to the velocity of a strike/kick moving perpendicular to the body's movement. Moving the body partly to the left and partly in the direction of the strike/kick will only result in the component of the velocity of the body that is moving in the direction of the strike/kick to the velocity of the strike/kick. That's where the loss comes in.) Since speed is the magnitude (disregarding direction) of velocity, if velocity is increased, speed is also greater. And, yes, not only is the speed greater when the body is moved in the same direction as the strike/kick, the mass is greater, too. So, the force is also greater through the relationship between mass and force in Newton's second law, F=m*a. Increased mass --> increased force.

Cynthia

 

[mastercole]

You are referring to only standup techniques, correect?

Here is what I wrote: "Just to clarify: I am stating that the maximum potential power/energy of a punch **on impact** can only be achieved while the body is in a higher, more unstable stance."

1) from my statement we can see that I am referring to "maximum potential power/energy of a punch **on impact**"

2) from that same statement, we can see that I am stating "maximum potential power/energy of a punch **on impact** can only be achieved while the body is in a higher, more unstable stance."

Yes, it is from a standing up position. I am referring to the point of impact of a punch - and stating that during that point of impact, in order to achieve the maximum power/energy the body must be in a higher, more unstable stance.

Please check out the time points in the Mike Tyson videos I provided.

 

[mastercole]

Technically true, but it's debateable...

Most forms of Karate (including Shotokan) originated in Okinawa prior to Japanese influence.

It is not debatable.

Also, *all* forms of Karate can trace their lineage's back to men who came from Okinawa.

From Funakoshi Sensei's books we can learn about the history of Karate. Have you read his books?

Gichen Funakoshi Sensei first brought TOTE JITSU to Japan in the early 1920's. Then, while in Japan, he made many alterations to TOTE JITSU, one of which was to call it Karate, giving it the Chinese characters that meant "empty hand".

Over a decade later, in the spring of 1936, the first Karate Dojo opened in Japan. The committee in charge of finding a name for the Dojo hung a sign above the door stating :Shotokan:

Years later, Funakoshi's style of Karate, that he created in Japan, began to be called Shotokan by it's practitioners.

 

[mastercole]

Consider this, the more MASS you add at impact, all other factors remaining the same, the more energy you apply to the target. If that MASS is rooted to the ground during impact, it is only partially being applied against the target. If that MASS was launched from the ground, at the point of being nearly airborne and being in correct alignment on impact, a greater percentage of MASS would be applied against the target, with less rooted to the ground.

QUOTE]

OK, got it now and have to say I agree. I often teach my students to get the "Most bang for the buck" by having their body move "Into" the kick or punch. An example would be a skipping lead leg side kick verus a side kick where the support foot does not move from inception thru execution. The former would be less rooted or "stable" at impact them the former.

HAd someone once refer to this concept as "addeditive speed" (he may have made up the term.) Think of it like this. If the foot from a stationary position moves at 30 miles an hour, but you can have it move the same speed while skipping toward the object at 10 mph then in relation to the stationary object the foot is moving 40mph (OK so it probably does not ad up exactly, there may be some loss involved) thereby increasing the force thru the added speed. As Master Cole points out this ads to the mass as well.

Yes, there is a value in moving your mass toward the object being struck. That is not really my point though, and it is very tough to explain with out showing someone, but I will try to expand.

Your mass can be in place, or even moving away from a target, and still be applied to the target, at the maximum level. This is possible when at impact, your body has achieved near peak tourque while applying peak mass to the target.

Your arm, or leg is a lever connected directly to your mass, so if aligned properly, and timed properly during near peak tourque with the maximum degree of acceleration, which can only occur at the point of maximum instability (in relation with the ground), you will transfer the maximum degree of acceleration and mass into the target at impact. Again, that is possible with your center of mass in place, or even moving backward, away from the target.

If anyone is familiar with badda chagi (moving backward changing stance, kicking round kick at the same time thing), picture that. It is a perfect example. Tyson's unique punching style is another.

 

[mastercole]

Yes, this is basically correct. To fine tune it just a little, speed is a scalar quantity because it has no direction. Velocity is speed in a particular direction, so it is a vector quantity. Vectors that represent the same type of quantity can be added. (Hence the term "additive speed" that you heard.) When the velocity toward the target (relative to the body) of the arm/leg that is striking/kicking is added to the component of the velocity of the body that is also moving toward the target, the overall (additive) velocity of the strike/kick as it moves toward the target is greater. So, to maximize the effect of this addition, the velocity of the strike/kick and the velocity of the body must both be moving in the same direction. (For example, moving the body to the left while striking forward won't add any of the body's velocity to the velocity of a strike/kick moving perpendicular to the body's movement. Moving the body partly to the left and partly in the direction of the strike/kick will only result in the component of the velocity of the body that is moving in the direction of the strike/kick to the velocity of the strike/kick. That's where the loss comes in.) Since speed is the magnitude (disregarding direction) of velocity, if velocity is increased, speed is also greater. And, yes, not only is the speed greater when the body is moved in the same direction as the strike/kick, the mass is greater, too. So, the force is also greater through the relationship between mass and force in Newton's second law, F=m*a. Increased mass --> increased force.

Cynthia

That is interesting. I think the slow movement of the mass toward a target has some value, but I feel the greater value of mass in regard to impact value is found in it's rapid rotation, generating torque and applying maximum torque and near peak acceleration. At the point of impact, we need the striking object to not only be traveling at near maximum speed, but to have the greatest potential for even more acceleration. Cynthia showed F = Mass X Acceleration. Acceleration in our case is +, we want to be gaining speed at the point of impact.

And we can gain speed at the point of impact, while moving the center of our mass backward, away from a target.

 

[lifespantkd]

Yes, there is a value in moving your mass toward the object being struck. That is not really my point though, and it is very tough to explain with out showing someone, but I will try to expand.

Your mass can be in place, or even moving away from a target, and still be applied to the target, at the maximum level. This is possible when at impact, your body has achieved near peak tourque while applying peak mass to the target.QUOTE]

Right. Discussions of mass, speed, and acceleration do not apply only to direct strikes toward a target supported by body movement toward a target. Rotational movement, by its very nature (change of direction), increases acceleration which increases force. Rotational movements in Taekwondo, as we all know, can be very powerful.

Cynthia

 

[puunui]

2. Kukkiwon is oneTaekwondo governing organization that promote test regulations and certify Black Belts.

The Kukkiwon's mission is broader than the above.

http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/viewfront/eng/about/business1.jsp