Spring force

[Kung Fu Wang]

The definition of spring force is to "move in minimum distance to achieve the maximum result". It's very difficult to find many MA techniques that fall into this category. The "leg spring" is one.

Can you find other example that may meet this requirement?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I guess that depends how we look at it. "Minimum distance" doesn't mean short distance, so for any given throw/takedown/strike, if there's not a shorter distance that can be used to perform the same function (and even that will be hard to define), then it's the "minimum distance" for that function.

So, leg spring is shorter than leg sweep. A static trip is shorter than a leg spring, but likely requires more upper-body movement. A jab (front-hand straight punch) is the shortest punch to reach the head in most cases.

I would think "spring force" - just using the term's words - would refer to doing something that causes tension that releases suddenly. That happens in that leg spring, because the opponent is pulled across, but his leg is braced across your leg, building tension. When you pop your leg, it releases all that tension into the throw.

 

[skribs]

It just looks like a chamber position to me.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It just looks like a chamber position to me.

The body position is similar. I think the "spring force" is where they've pivoted the opponent so his leg is pressed against the back of their leg with the foot still planted. If this is done right (his second attempt, not his first), a quick pop of that connecting leg will see the opponent's foot suddenly "spring" out from under him. Time it with an upper-body shift, and it's a handy takedown. Somewhere along the line, I learned that somewhere in Kali it's called the "leg trick".

 

[skribs]

The body position is similar. I think the "spring force" is where they've pivoted the opponent so his leg is pressed against the back of their leg with the foot still planted. If this is done right (his second attempt, not his first), a quick pop of that connecting leg will see the opponent's foot suddenly "spring" out from under him. Time it with an upper-body shift, and it's a handy takedown. Somewhere along the line, I learned that somewhere in Kali it's called the "leg trick".

I'm just saying, the position is chambered for that spring. The concept seems very narrow scoped if you're looking at that particular motion (using the extension of your limb to pop your opponent with the muscles on the inside of the joint), but it broadens as it goes up.

We don't use the spring force for this next technique, but a similar motion in one of our arm locks in hapkido. We point their elbow down and jam our bicep into their tricep, which hyperextends their elbow. Good for getting them up on their toes and making them light to take down.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm just saying, the position is chambered for that spring. The concept seems very narrow scoped if you're looking at that particular motion (using the extension of your limb to pop your opponent with the muscles on the inside of the joint), but it broadens as it goes up.

We don't use the spring force for this next technique, but a similar motion in one of our arm locks in hapkido. We point their elbow down and jam our bicep into their tricep, which hyperextends their elbow. Good for getting them up on their toes and making them light to take down.

Sounds similar to one of our Arm Bar applications/variants. I could see defining spring force to include that bind. I'm not sure if the OP is meant to include that kind of bind or not.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Sounds similar to one of our Arm Bar applications/variants. I could see defining spring force to include that bind. I'm not sure if the OP is meant to include that kind of bind or not.

I use spring force in wrist lock, elbow lock as well. By definition, the spring force is a soft-hard-soft force. During the wrist lock, if I sink my wrist and raise my elbow for about 2 inch, my opponent will be down. By moving only 2 inch, if you can affect your opponent's structure, that's spring force by definition.

 

[skribs]

I use spring force in wrist lock, elbow lock as well. By definition, the spring force is a soft-hard-soft force. During the wrist lock, if I sink my wrist and raise my elbow for about 2 inch, my opponent will be down. By moving only 2 inch, if you can affect your opponent's structure, that's spring force by definition.

I think the problem with this definition is that it depends on where you start. If I start 1/4" away from the breaking point, I can have "spring force", but only because I'm already there. If I have to move into position first, then I have to move quite far.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I use spring force in wrist lock, elbow lock as well. By definition, the spring force is a soft-hard-soft force. During the wrist lock, if I sink my wrist and raise my elbow for about 2 inch, my opponent will be down. By moving only 2 inch, if you can affect your opponent's structure, that's spring force by definition.

I can see that. Where does the term "spring" come into it?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think the problem with this definition is that it depends on where you start. If I start 1/4" away from the breaking point, I can have "spring force", but only because I'm already there. If I have to move into position first, then I have to move quite far.

This is a good point. When you make the complete move, the spring force is well hidden and not noticeable. If you try to rush through the whole technique, you may never be able to notice it's there. When your body is tangled with your opponent's body and you can't move much, this kind of spring force will come out handy.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I can see that. Where does the term "spring" come into it?

From the throw "彈(Tan) - Spring". You can spring your opponent's leg backward, or inside out. When your opponent's legs are apart, and you can't reach to his both legs, you attack one of his legs which is closer to you.

 

[skribs]

This is a good point. When you make the complete move, the spring force is well hidden and not noticeable. If you try to rush through the whole technique, you may never be able to notice it's there. When your body is tangled with your opponent's body and you can't move much, this kind of spring force will come out handy.

I actually hadn't thought of it like that.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I actually hadn't thought of it like that.

When I was a student and just learned "spring", I thought if I could bend my leg to the maximum and then straight it to the maximum, I could generate the maximum amount of springing force. Until one day my opponent was big and strong, I found it was not how hard that I should do, but how correct that I should do. That was the day that I realized that I had not learned enough.

 

[skribs]

When I was a student and just learned "spring", I thought if I could bend my leg to the maximum and then straight it to the maximum, I could generate the maximum amount of springing force. Until one day my opponent was big and strong, I found it was not how hard that I should do, but how correct that I should do. That was the day that I realized that I had not learned enough.

I think it's because it's the suddenness of the move, more than the strength of the move, that makes a difference.

I've spent years of my life on a trampoline. Jumping on a trampoline is mostly in the calves - you just extend your feet and it launches you up.

I've also been on the trampolines where they harness you into a bungee system so you can get more hangtime and do more flips (and not snap your skull when you mess up). With these, you have to jump mostly with your quadriceps. You squat down low and push off. This is because it's not about the bounce at the bottom, but rather the hang time at the top.

Similarly, this type of a sweep is more about bouncing the opponent over your hip.

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With that said, I'd like to change my answer above. I think the "spring" motion is more of that sudden change that happens in a blink. Where a wrist lock somewhat qualifies, the techniques I think of more are where you catch the attacker in the middle of another move.

I've never done this on purpose, but it's happened a few times where I do a wrist lock that pulls the person towards me, and they smash their face against my shoulder. That pop with the shoulder executes a similar sudden change in direction on the way down.

Some of the wrist throws I've done are similar, but they have a big buildup and then a quick release where the person is essentially unwinding their arm by letting me throw them.

This is interesting to think about.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

From the throw "彈(Tan) - Spring". You can spring your opponent's leg backward, or inside out. When your opponent's legs are apart, and you can't reach to his both legs, you attack one of his legs which is closer to you.

That makes sense in the context of that technique. So, is the term "spring force" - as you've described it being about minimal distance of movement - named from that technique?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That makes sense in the context of that technique. So, is the term "spring force" - as you've described it being about minimal distance of movement - named from that technique?

You can also use spring force on you belly as well. It can be used to counter almost all the body contact throw (your opponent's back touches on your chest).

This kind of force is not natural for human body. We don't born with it. We don't get it through our daily activity. It takes special training to obtain it.

A beginner uses arm muscle to lift his opponent up. An experienced wrestler uses belly to bounce (spring force) his opponent off the ground.