Spirit: the third (forgotten?) part of the triangle

[Xue Sheng]

Dude, you have no idea how tempted I was to reply with a single J-word!

Feel free to use the J-word should you so desire. I have been called many things by those who I do not agree with about spirituality in MA which is rather ironic if you think about it.

But I do ask, why would spirituality necessarily water down the martial arts? Is it not possible that spirituality could enhance one's training? After all, as I have been lead to understand it, the eastern martial arts are strongly connected to a monastic tradition.

I suggest you check your history on eastern martial arts. There is MUCH more to CMA than Shaolin and MUCH more to JMA than Zen.

But regardless you would be hard pressed to get a single TMA trained Sifu/Sensei form China or Japan to talk to you about spirituality, it is intrinsic they do not compartmentalize like we do in the west.

I do agree that it is not a sensei's job to teach spirituality. But does that mean he cannot express his personal spiritual beliefs to the students in any aspect?

You do not understand Chinese or Japanese culture if you expect a spiritual view form a real live Sensei or Sifu.

I understand that this topic is wearing on you, so if you are not inclined to respond that's okay, maybe someone else will take it up. My sincere thanks for your participation.

I will try and keep this civil

I do taiji, people show up to class with a view of a calm sense of self and spirituality that they KNOW they will get form Taiji. But when you even MENTION MA they are offended and then they try and change it to what THEY Want and it is this search for spirituality that we in the west appear to need that is a BIG contributor to the destruction of MA styles like Taiji and Aikido and Bagua soon to follow.

The bottom-line here is that your view of spirituality is just fine for you but it is NOT part of what TMA id nor was it ever part of the Eastern view of MA.

If you want to pursue it that is fine but do not say it is missing or you don't understand why it is not emphasizes or why it is not discussed more because then you are forcing your view of spirituality on MA that was not there previously.

Many do not understand the MA they train or the culture it comes form but instead of trying to understand it they try and change it to someth8ing they understand and the changes the art and DOES water it down and make it FAR less effective than it originally was.

Did you have any idea before this that Taiji was actually a rather effective MA or did you just think it was a type of moving mediation for health. This is what I am talking about it waters things down.

Now have at me call me whatever name you want but I suggest you learn more about the history and the culture that you’re chosen MA comes form before you wonder why your view of spirituality is not openly discussed or practiced, berate others for not agreeing and/or force your views of spirituality on it.

 

[girlbug2]

I wasn't going to call you a name, certainly not "Jesus"

Yes, part of my purpose in being here is to become more educated. That is why I ask questions.

It was not my intent to berate anybody or to force my views of spirituality on anybody. This is meant to be a philosophical discussion about the various perceptions of the term spirit and how it applies to martial arts. I merely ask for everybody's take on it from their understanding and experiences. And now we have yours. Thank you.

 

[Kacey]

But I do ask, why would spirituality necessarily water down the martial arts? Is it not possible that spirituality could enhance one's training? After all, as I have been lead to understand it, the eastern martial arts are strongly connected to a monastic tradition.

Spirituality is a personal thing, and people can come to it in a variety of ways.

From Spock's World, by Diane Duane:

“He folded his hands and steepled his fingers. ‘There is no context in your translation because it is probably the one concept in the language that must be continually reexperienced to be valid. You cannot freeze it into one form, any more than you would want to repeat the same breath over and over all your life. One must experience a’Tha differently every second. But that is not a tradition or a stricture imposed by people – merely a function of the structure of the universe. Your position in space-time constantly changes: a’Tha must change as well.’
Jim shook his head. ‘I’m missing something.’
‘I think not,’ Spock said. ‘I think most human languages would render the concept as ‘immanence.’ or something similar. a’Tha is the direct experience of the being or force responsible for the creation and maintenance of the Universe.’
‘God’ Jim said, incredulous.
… Vulcans experience that presence directly and constantly. Always have, to varying degrees. The word is one of the oldest known, one of the first ever found written, and is the same in almost all of the ancient languages.

I posted the entire passage to give context the part I was interested in - the part now in bold. The key facet here is that spirituality is not fixed - as Spock says in the passage, about a'Tha, it must continuously reexperienced, as it is always changing and evolving, based on the life experiences of the person involved. Certainly, involvement in a martial art can affect one's current spirituality; it can even shape one's current (and future) spirituality, through the physical conditioning and the mental discipline, and many instructors will help with that by providing guidance along the way (how and when to use the skills, how to build them, how to train, etc.) but that growth and change is a personal, internal happening.

I do agree that it is not a sensei's job to teach spirituality. But does that mean he cannot express his personal spiritual beliefs to the students in any aspect?

It depends on what you mean. Do I try to demonstrate to my students that I follow the moral precepts taught in my art to guide its use? Certainly; we discuss scenarios in which TKD should and should not be used on a regular basis, as I consider that part of my responsibility as an instructor. Do I discuss my religion with them? Not in class, and only in the context of "I'll be out for this Jewish holiday, so-and-so will be subbing for me." My students are welcome to ask about my religion - and my spirituality, which is tied into it - outside of class, and outside the context of class. But none of my current students share my religion - why would I expect them to share my spirituality?

There are some clubs and associations formed to promote a particular religious view, and that's their choice - as long as they make it clear to the students that that's what they're doing, rather than tricking students into believing that the religion is part and parcel of the martial art. Martial arts - while often paired with religious/spiritual practices throughout Asia - are not religious in and of themselves, and should not treated as such.

I understand that this topic is wearing on you, so if you are not inclined to respond that's okay, maybe someone else will take it up. My sincere thanks for your participation.

If you don't ask, you won't know - but be aware that this is a topic about which a great many people have very strong opinions, and often very private ones as well. Some people are quite open about sharing their personal spirituality, but others are less so, and some will not do it at all.

 

[JBrainard]

How (if at all) is spirit addressed in your dojo? And is it regarded equally with mind and body?

It is intentionally not addressed in the school I go to. My teacher has not explicitly said why it is so, but I would guess that it is because our spirituality is a personal matter, and he has students of many religions training under him.
I think it makes sense.

 

[Xue Sheng]

II merely ask for everybody's take on it from their understanding and experiences. And now we have yours. Thank you.

Actually you don't.

You have my view of spirituality discussions as they applies to martial arts.... kinda

and you're welcome

If you don't ask, you won't know - but be aware that this is a topic about which a great many people have very strong opinions, and often very private ones as well. Some people are quite open about sharing their personal spirituality, but others are less so, and some will not do it at all.

BINGO!!!



As to asking it is fine but I can't stress enough that one really needs to know the language if you will.

I keep referring to Shen as being translated to spirit and to a westerner they go EUREKA I found spirituality but they do not delve into it any deeper to find that Shen to a Chinese person means spirit but that spirit is "mind"

And the original miss understanding of Qi made by the OP herself. Qi is energy it is not spirit or spirituality.

Looking into the actual meanings of the words being used and not making assumptions as to the meaning, even though one would be justified in believing the spirit that is Shen is the same as the western definition, if you look into it you find it is not and in the process you learn some pretty amazing things about the culture.

You cannot put western views and ideals on an Eastern Culture, it doesn't work, and that is if you want real understanding of said culture.

Also could be that all of my teachers were or are either Chinese or taught by Chinese a Sifu or a Japanese Sensei too I don’t know.

Is there spirituality in Martial arts… actually if you train it right yes… but it is not overt it is intrinsic…. It is not a group thing it is personal… and my view of it is likely different than the next person so how do you train it….

What is, is that is all.

And that's the most spirituality you will get out of me :asian:

 

[KELLYG]

Are we talking about :martial spirit: or religion. They, In my opinion are two different things. Martial spirit is the fundamental :who you are: The connection between you and your self. For example breaking boards, probably does not make since for people not involved in martial arts. But it is used for focus, technique and your willingness to break wood. Doing the same kick over and over to learn and relearn the kick to your level of perfection is another example. How about black belt testing, some are so physical almost past the point of exhaustion. Thru all of this there is a breaking down and rebuilding of your personal self.

 

[JBrainard]

Are we talking about :martial spirit: or religion. They, In my opinion are two different things. Martial spirit is the fundamental :who you are: The connection between you and your self. For example breaking boards, probably does not make since for people not involved in martial arts. But it is used for focus, technique and your willingness to break wood. Doing the same kick over and over to learn and relearn the kick to your level of perfection is another example. How about black belt testing, some are so physical almost past the point of exhaustion. Thru all of this there is a breaking down and rebuilding of your personal self.

But what "the willingness" and the "personal self" mean are different for different people. It may simply be the mind, it may be the mind and "spirit." It all depends on the individual person's experience.

 

[Jenna]

Our school uses the term to mean the student's willingness to perform with intensity and to give the maximum effort even after your lung has fallen out and walked off to get a drink. Sometimes we have kata sessions where the goal is to demonstrate spirit even if the performance degrades somewhat.

Hey CoryKS I think you are much closer to the mark with this interpretation than the folk suggesting spirit in some way extends from a religious concept. I much prefer your account. It is possible to have great spirit without being in the least "spiritual" (the way that term is used in daily parlance). And by this account, spirit is in no way lacking in most enthusiastic MA clubs and schools imho. Good post. Thanks.
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[girlbug2]

willingness Thru all of this there is a breaking down and rebuilding of your personal self.

I think I understand. That is very well put.

 

[zDom]

www.everythingisspiritual.com

My dad asked me to watch it, so I did. I was expecting a dry lecture on theology.

It was NOT dry, but very entertaining AND interesting/thought provoking.

"In the Hebrew scriptures there is no word for 'spiritual.' And Jesus never used the phrase 'spiritual life.' Because for Jesus and his tradition, all of life is spiritual ... "

 

[thardey]

I figure that "martial" spirit is alluded to in the willingness to work hard, to overcome, and to expand yourself while practicing, but that is only a shadow of the "spirit" of a warrior.

Most of us hope to never have to tap into that "warrior" spirit, and those who have find their perspective on life forever altered. It's that unknown, almost separate animal nature living deep down inside of you. No dojo training can prepare you for it, and no instructor can teach you to tame it. It's that part of you that's dangerous, that most religions try to starve, or replace, and that most laws try to tether. But even the wisest lawmakers realize that there is a place where the law simply cannot control the spirit of a warrior, it has to make allowances for it, and call it "reasonable doctrine" or "common law."

Once that powerful spirit has been let out of it's "Pandora's Box," the warrior must learn to live with it, and that is a very private matter. For those who haven't felt it, you can't explain it, and for those who have, there is no need to explain.

It's an "awakening," where you realize many things about yourself that you never would have believed. Only one of those things is the true realization that you are dangerous, and there is no need to prove it to yourself anymore. There are many other things, but they are almost impossible to discuss.

Fortunately for me, my spiritual beliefs do not force me to dismiss, cage, or starve this powerful spirit, but instead teaches me how to harness it for good. It does not run me, but I (through my religion) can use it.

Karate does not, nor was it designed to, teach you what this spirit is, or how to live with it. Karate teaches you the tools that this spirit can use when it is called upon. Instead of being a uncontrolled explosion of passion, force, and violence, Karate puts that gunpowder into a barrel, so that the explosion can be focused into propelling the bullet in a specific direction.

 

[Errant108]

Prove it doesn't. Proving, or disproving, an intangible of that nature is a philosophical exercise - it goes along with proving faith.

You can't prove a negative. Logic doesn't work like that.

Spirit in martial arts is not developed by talking about it. If anything, that kills it.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Prove the spirit exists.

First of all you are arguing the wrong defenition of Spirit. In this context it speaks of your attitude and how you feel about life and your life. You do have attitude, don't you?
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

You can't prove a negative. Logic doesn't work like that.

Spirit in martial arts is not developed by talking about it. If anything, that kills it.

How so?

 

[Errant108]

First of all you are arguing the wrong defenition of Spirit. In this context it speaks of your attitude and how you feel about life and your life. You do have attitude, don't you?
Sean

I'm not arguing anything.

I'm just asking for proof.

 

[Errant108]

How so?

You are already dead.

 

[Touch Of Death]

You are already dead.

Wow! That was mind blowing. I should run off and join a school that deosn't believe in developing spirit too.
Sean

 

[Xue Sheng]

Spirit

There it exists are we done

 

[Touch Of Death]

Spirit

There it exists are we done

I knew it!

 

[Errant108]

Wow! That was mind blowing. I should run off and join a school that deosn't believe in developing spirit too.
Sean

Killing chickens. Breaking eggs.