Speed Vs Power

[Haruhiko]

False. Power = Force x Velocity: This physics formula clearly shows that power requires both force (strength) and velocity (speed). An arm punch (e.g., jab) can be faster than a whole body punch (e.g., rear hand cross) but less powerful.

Punch Force - The Science Behind The Punch

Punch Force | Boxing | Strength and Conditioning | Sport Science | MMA

boxingscience.co.uk

This is the most MMA-science thing I've ever seen.

 

[Haruhiko]

What evidence do you have to support this? Studies have shown the opposite.

Excerpts from "Hand Speed Measurements in Boxing:"

"Not every punch has to be as fast as possible. Sometimes fast lead hand punches are used to break through the opponent’s defence in order to strike him with a powerful rear hand punch. With regards to technique the lead hand punch (jab) is different from the rear hand punch (cross). The jab is a fast but weak blow, delivered from the front hand...

In most cases, jabs had a higher velocity than the cross."

The example @PhotonGuy mentioned is a complex one, as it involves a system of connected masses acting together in acceleration, from a state of potential.

But I'm not sure that's what his point was to begin with - just that if you do intend to punch with the lead hand, you must move your centre of mass along with it to produce more force, just as a Taekwondo fighter would with their legs to kick a leading roundhouse kick. Assuming a right leg is in lead, you quickly push from the lead, immediately step with left then distribute (still moving) centre of mass on to left leg, and with the momentum, lift right leg up bent, and snap to kick with potential energy.

Sometimes if you're too fast, the momentum is "distributed" to the lead leg producing torque force which then rotates you backwards, and you can miss the landing of the step of the non-leading foot. And end up on your ****.

It's risky and can be unbalanced, but like boxing usually used to prod the guard.

 

[HighKick]

Im talking about in reference to a stationary object, such as a deer that's standing still. Lets say you're shooting at the stationary deer from the bed of a pickup truck while the truck is moving towards it, I would not recommend really doing this as I believe in most cases its illegal to hunt from vehicles but for the sake of science we can discuss it. Also most deer are not going to just stand still while a truck is coming towards them, let alone while being shot at, but again for science's sake we can discuss it. From the deer's perspective the bullet will be moving at the speed of the bullet plus the speed of the truck.

Now, lets say you're shooting at the deer while you're standing on the ground still, the bullet from the deers perspective will only be going at its ordinary speed without the speed of the truck added in because in this case you're not shooting from a moving truck you're shooting from a stationary position. So from the deer's perspective the bullet will be going faster if you shoot from the truck than if you shoot from a stationary position.

By the same token, if you punch towards an opponent, your hand is going to be going faster when you put your hips and the rest of your body into it than if you just punch with your arm, without putting the rest of your body into it, from your opponent's perspective.

It is relativity 101. Think of the velocity of the bullet. It is Much faster than the traveling truck. In simplest terms, the speed of the truck is 'consumed' by the speed of the round. You could say the bullet catches up and passes the speed of the truck. It is not an addition problem.

To your punching analogy, yes, the punch could be faster due to good form and technique. But this is a connected motion, so the bullet analogy does apply.

 

[Haruhiko]

It is relativity 101. Think of the velocity of the bullet. It is Much faster than the traveling truck. In simplest terms, the speed of the truck is 'consumed' by the speed of the round. You could say the bullet catches up and passes the speed of the truck. It is not an addition problem.

To your punching analogy, yes, the punch could be faster due to good form and technique. But this is a connected motion, so the bullet analogy does apply.

Pretty much this. It's a connected "kinetic chain". Though it is additive in respect to the chain of motion from the waist/body -> arm/punch, it's still relying on energy within an isolated system.

The bullet/truck analogy considers two systems, with one being an assumed velocity of the truck, and another being the acceleration of a bullet. If you were shooting from the back of a trailer, the velocity of the bullet would be slower relative to the ground/target, the same relative to the truck/shooter and even faster relative to oncoming stationary targets. So less impact force from the back, and more from the front.

 

[Badhabits]

You are missing an important point. The hip rotation is slower than the arm extension. This means in order to for the hips to add to their synergy to the punch speed their movement must be initiated prior to the punch being launched. In other words, the arm punching motion must wait for the hips. This time lag means the entire punching process with the hips will be slower than a punch without the hip rotation.

It is possible to lead with the fist slightly but the hips "catch up" and the whole movement finish with the correct sequence of the hips pushing the fist. This is something my current instructor has us practice at a certain point. We practice both lead with arm for speed and lead with the body for power, later on the two begin to blend.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

the entire punching process with the hips will be slower than a punch without the hip rotation.

Agree 100% with you on this. One speed training that I like is to jump into the air, throw 3 punches before landing back down. It's fast because there is no hip rotation involved.

 

[PhotonGuy]

What evidence do you have to support this? Studies have shown the opposite.

If you punch with just your arm your hand will be moving at the speed of your arm, if you put your hips into it your hand will be moving with the speed of your arm plus the speed of your hips, for a more in-depth explanation see post #50.

 

[PhotonGuy]

You are missing an important point. The hip rotation is slower than the arm extension. This means in order to for the hips to add to their synergy to the punch speed their movement must be initiated prior to the punch being launched. In other words, the arm punching motion must wait for the hips. This time lag means the entire punching process with the hips will be slower than a punch without the hip rotation.

I see what you mean but the way I look at it is like this, lets say you shoot a sling shot, if you pull it all the way back when you shoot it, it will take you longer to get off a shot than if you just pull it back halfway, but the rock will be going faster when it leaves the slingshot if you pull it back all the way, as opposed to pulling it back only halfway, so pulling it back halfway will enable you to get off a shot faster but pulling it back all the way will cause the rock to reach a higher speed.

So punching without hip rotation would be like pulling it back only halfway when you shoot the sling shot, punching with hip rotation would be like pulling it back all the way.

 

[PhotonGuy]

To find a balance between power and speed is always the big challenge in MA.

The idea is to have both, Bruce Lee did it.

If your opponent keeps moving toward your side door, your powerful cross may never have a chance to punch out.

That's why with the cross, you need to set it up.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Velocity is not the proper term. Acceleration is the proper term.

Velocity is speed and direction, acceleration is pickup.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That's why with the cross, you need to set it up.

Not if your opponent keeps moving. This is why it's better to put your strong side forward. If your leading arm is your strong weapon, it's hard for your opponent to hide in your side door.

 

[wab25]

We have touched on this part a few times in this thread.... but I think more emphasis needs to be put on what is behind the punch. Two punches can be thrown, by the same person, at the same speed... but if one time the person is in the correct position at the time of the impact and the other time he is not.... that second punch will have much less power / force / impact..... Its not just how fast the punch moves, or how heavy the mass is.... it is also the structure behind that punch at the time of impact.

Different parts of our body move at different speeds and need to go different distances to effect the punch. There are multiple ways to coordinate the body so that they line up correctly at the time of impact. In order to punch harder, punch more correctly.... break it down and learn the timing and coordination behind the punch. It will have a huge effect on the power of the punch itself.

Also remember the different uses for punches. Total power is not always the goal.... it does not matter how hard your punch missed. To be effective with punches, you need fast punches, hard punches, accurate punches and punches that commit your opponent more than they commit you. Yes, its better if your punch can be harder.... but understand what you can trade for more speed when needed and what you can trade for more power when needed.

Spend time working on how your body is going to receive the impact, of your punch.... (no, you cannot pull your hand back fast enough to miss the impact.... if you don't receive the impact from your punch, neither did the other guy)

 

[HighKick]

If you punch with just your arm your hand will be moving at the speed of your arm, if you put your hips into it your hand will be moving with the speed of your arm plus the speed of your hips, for a more in-depth explanation see post #50.

No, but if the hips are used correctly, they can speed up the whole motion. More importantly, the hips can create Much more force in the punch.