Speed Vs Power

[PhotonGuy]

False. Power = Force x Velocity: This physics formula clearly shows that power requires both force (strength) and velocity (speed).

I would think that force is directly proportional to velocity, that's why a baseball going at 100 mph will hit the catcher's mitt harder than a baseball going at 80 mph.

An arm punch (e.g., jab) can be faster than a whole body punch (e.g., rear hand cross) but less powerful.

You might be able to throw a jab in less time than it would take you to throw a rear hand cross but that's because your hand is traveling a shorter distance, the jab is a shorter punch, but that doesn't mean your hand will reach a higher speed in terms of mph when you throw a jab as opposed to when you throw a cross.

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That's when you add mass into the equation, but the mass of your hand or foot doesn't change so if you want to gain power it would make sense to work on stuff that you can change.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I wouldn't go quite this far. A flicking backfist or jab without mass behind it with gloves does little damage. The same move without gloves with hard knuckles hitting your cheekbone hurts a lot and can cause injury.

A bee that flaps it's wings is focused on speed and not power that drives through.

I think you are talking more about pain than power and speed. Pain is separate from power and speed. One doesn't have to feel pain from power or speed in order for those two things to exists. I did some power concepts today and none of them were painful. The power was very heavy but not painful. It drove through my structure and my guard, but it didn't hurt until it wore my arm down. The only pain that I felt was due to the repetitiveness of the impact. Had my sparring partner used speed, but that weight to drive power then I would have probably been done in one or two strikes.

Speed goes fast and Power drives through. If I'm not driving power through, then I'm left with speed.

Speed without power.
Speed does not drive through

Speed does not drive through

In my mind.
1. Can I have speed without power? Yes.
2. Can I have power without speed? Yes
3. Speed and power are not the same thing.

Power without speed.

Speed can hurt.
Power can hurt.
Power + Speed will ruin a guy's day.

 

[JowGaWolf]

As for the fighting style shown in your competition video - it's like play fighting.

If you fight with only speed, then this is how fighting will look like. If I told you to fight only with speed and no power then it will turn into something that looks like play fighting.

Raymond Daniels was a top point sparring competitor. All of his sparring competitions looks like play fighting because only speed was allowed.

This is what he looks like when he adds power

Speed with power never looks like playing

Speed without power always looks like playing. Even in animals you can tell when it's a play thing or when they are trying to cause damage by the power they put into their attack.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I think you are talking more about pain than power and speed.

My point here is that a strike can be effective without body mass behind it (beyond that of the attacking limb) if it's executed with high speed without padding.

A. Without body mass behind the strike there will be little penetration or drive-thru. But with knuckles vs cheekbone damage will occur with only 1/8 of an inch penetration.

B. Knuckles vs abdomen requires more penetration (and body mass behind the strike) to cause damage as the muscle (and fat) will absorb much of the impact.

In talking about effective strikes there are a number of factors that can come into play: Mass, Speed, Power, Penetration, Weapon and Target, and even the opponent's motion relative to your strike. And pain can be included as it can distract/shock the opponent and be a tactical advantage.

I put much attention in training biomechanics to deliver total body mass into a strike to produce maximum power/force. This is a main focus of karate training. But that said, maximum power is not always needed. For example, only a few pounds of pressure are needed to break an extended knee or elbow or poke an eye out. In most cases I would willingly trade 30% body mass power (IMO, I have plenty to spare) for an extra 20% more speed (you can't have too much of that!).

 

[Badhabits]

My point here is that a strike can be effective without body mass behind it (beyond that of the attacking limb) if it's executed with high speed without padding.

A. Without body mass behind the strike there will be little penetration or drive-thru. But with knuckles vs cheekbone damage will occur with only 1/8 of an inch penetration.

B. Knuckles vs abdomen requires more penetration (and body mass behind the strike) to cause damage as the muscle (and fat) will absorb much of the impact.

In talking about effective strikes there are a number of factors that can come into play: Mass, Speed, Power, Penetration, Weapon and Target, and even the opponent's motion relative to your strike. And pain can be included as it can distract/shock the opponent and be a tactical advantage.

I put much attention in training biomechanics to deliver total body mass into a strike to produce maximum power/force. This is a main focus of karate training. But that said, maximum power is not always needed. For example, only a few pounds of pressure are needed to break an extended knee or elbow or poke an eye out. In most cases I would willingly trade 30% body mass power (IMO, I have plenty to spare) for an extra 20% more speed (you can't have too much of that!).

This is a really good post. There's more to this than you get out of the first reading

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

3. Speed and power are not the same thing.

This is a very important point.

1. Power is body push arm - When you push a car, your leg starts to push on the ground. The counter force then transfer from your leg all the way to your arm (this is compressing that's why it's slow).
2. Speed is body chase arm - When a mosquito flies in front of you and you want to smash it, your hand will move first, and your body will follow (there is no compressing here that's why it's fast).

In CMA, Baji is famous for power, praying mantis is famous for speed. Someone created his own style and call it "Baji mantis". I truly don't know how these 2 things can exist at the same time.

 

[Badhabits]

The bullet no doubt caused vibrations in the TV that damaged the internal electronics.

BTW where are you from? Where is a place where you have random bullets coming through your window other than a war zone?

I'm in the southeast USA. . Lol we had an um...unsavory character move in up the road. Some boys tried to kill him a couple of times. The last time they shot up his house bullets went everywhere. Me and our neighbor were out all night keeping watch after. It's not a particularly rough area, but like, something like this happens it mostly gets handled in house so to speak. Cops came out for a few, laughed about it and rolled out. Local culture you know. Good times, stories to tell.

 

[Badhabits]

This is a very important point.

1. Power is body push arm - When you push a car, your leg starts to push on the ground. The counter force then transfer from your leg all the way to your arm.
2. Speed is body chase arm - When a mosquito flies in front of you, your hand will move first, and your body will follow.

This is great. I use pushing a broke down vehicle to explain front stance and it's
use of projecting force to the front. Really good example that most people understand

 

[JowGaWolf]

My point here is that a strike can be effective without body mass behind it (beyond that of the attacking limb) if it's executed with high speed without padding.

Correct.

In talking about effective strikes there are a number of factors that can come into play: Mass, Speed, Power, Penetration, Weapon and Target, and even the opponent's motion relative to your strike. And pain can be included as it can distract/shock the opponent and be a tactical advantage.

All of that is way beyond the OP's confusion. That's just going to make things more confusing for them. That's why I was so general about my strikes. Normally, when someone asks about speed and power, the group usually starts to talk about math and equations. If someone is having trouble understanding the two then the math and added factors are just going to make it more confusing for them. That's why my videos are ones that I would show to you guys if I was going to explain it. If I was going to explain it to you guys, then I would have just pulled out a video on me working one speed and one of me working on power since I often train the two separately.

This is a main focus of karate training. But that said, maximum power is not always needed.

Correct, this is why I often train the two separately.

But if the OP doesn't understand the difference between Speed and Power then they aren't going to know any concept about moving mass and using it for power. That stuff would be way over their head.

I just think on some concepts should be reduced to the most basics to get a general idea and then grow from there. Once that general understanding there then it becomes easier to explain. If I put a post claiming that I can throw a slow punch with no speed and power, and I could still hurt someone with it, most people wouldn't think it's possible. But it's possible and chi isn't needed to do it.

But all of that is way beyond. "I've heard talk about people who have tremendous speed but not much power which I find a bit confusing. If you've got speed you're going to have power."

Because depending on the type of strike, that statement is true. It's definitely true with long fist big circular strikes. To be effective with the technique. Speed and Power travel together. If I don't want to have power then I have to slow down. If I want to have power then I need to speed up. Technique I can do the techniques without power, but that destroys the technique to the point where one can't honestly say they are doing the technique.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

My point here is that a strike can be effective without body mass behind it

Agree!

- A 20 lb force land on the nose is worse than a 50 lb force land on the chest.
- A 2 lb force land on the eye ball is worse than a 20 lb force land on the nose.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

maximum power is not always needed.

In China, people always say that Baji guys will have bad temper. If a Baji guy spends 100 times in full compressing, but when he tries to release, 99% of the time, his opponent is not there any more. In the long run, he will develop bad temper (because compress without release).

 

[isshinryuronin]

If I don't want to have power then I have to slow down. If I want to have power then I need to speed up.

Some make the mistake of thinking power is always the solution. I think this mindset was formed in Japanese Shotokan culture with their emphasis on longer range sport fighting, deep strong attacks and "one punch-one kill" view. Generally, the Okinawan styles have less of this. I would guess the pre-19th century version had even less emphasis on this due to their style of close-in fighting where there was less distance to develop momentum as well as their use of grappling.

The problem for some in trying to get too much power is that it can slow the attack by over-prepping the hips and marshalling one's spirit/energy, both of which can take extra fractions of a second. The attack motion itself may be very fast, but it takes longer to initiate the action. This takes specific training to overcome.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

too much power is that it can slow the attack by over-prepping

When I test my rhino guard, I tried to use hip movement to direct my arm. If I want to move my arm to my left, I will move my hip to my right. It works pretty good in theory (body push/pull arm), but it's just too slow. I soon gave up that idea. To deflect an incoming punch just doesn't require full body power.

In this video, it's clear to see that arms go first, and body follow. People may say there is no "3 harmony - body unification" there. The 3H concept just doesn't work in the speed model.

 

[JowGaWolf]

In China, people always say that Baji guys will have bad temper. If a Baji guy spends 100 times in full compressing, but when he tries to release, 99% of the time, his opponent is not there any more. In the long run, he will develop bad temper (because compress without release).

This is funny to me because Jow Ga is like this for me. In sparring I can't relax with the punch like I want to because then it will bring power with it. The day I started training for the competition was a day I was incredibly happy because I could finally relax.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The day I started training for the competition was a day I was incredibly happy because I could finally relax.

This is why I'm interested in the throwing art. In striking art, I can't knock my opponent down over and over. But in throwing art, I can throw my opponent down over and over. On wrestling mat, I can release my power as much as I want. But in friendly sparring, I have to control my power.

In Sanda, my opponent may have concerned with my punching power. All my punches are trying to control his leading arm. When I use speed to set up clinch, I don't have to use any punching power in my set up. This makes a fight very simple.

This way, I have the PRO of speed (faster and use less energy). But I don't have the CON of speed (less knock down power). This is why I believe speed and throwing art can integrate together nicely.

If I can use speed to set up clinch, lacking knock down power will not be my concern.

 

[Same Trick]

Some make the mistake of thinking power is always the solution. I think this mindset was formed in Japanese Shotokan culture with their emphasis on longer range sport fighting, deep strong attacks and "one punch-one kill" view. Generally, the Okinawan styles have less of this. I would guess the pre-19th century version had even less emphasis on this due to their style of close-in fighting where there was less distance to develop momentum as well as their use of grappling.

The problem for some in trying to get too much power is that it can slow the attack by over-prepping the hips and marshalling one's spirit/energy, both of which can take extra fractions of a second. The attack motion itself may be very fast, but it takes longer to initiate the action. This takes specific training to overcome.

Actually I think the karate all body power mentality thing came with the “Okinawan way”of practicing with the emphasis on body hardening exercises that carried over to the method of practicing kata, and non emphasis on free sparring/randori.

If talking Shotokan, it’s early steps into randori/free sparring weren’t that successful but soon reality set in, sensing and timing won first place.

“One strike one kill” concept is easy to misunderstand as an all one power strike with emphasis on “power”. The original idea is taken from the Jigen-ryu sword school’s “one cut one kill” which has to do with having a correct judgement (subconsciously)when to draw the sword to one’s advantage, something akin to Funakoshi’s “ there’s no first attack in karate”. “Strong/powerful” is more related to the mind than about the muscles.

When I mention the “Okinawan way” I probably point to the Itosu karate reformation era.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Actually I think the karate all body power mentality thing came with the “Okinawan way”of practicing with the emphasis on body hardening exercises that carried over to the method of practicing kata, and non emphasis on free sparring/randori.

I don't think body hardening practice (mostly stressed in Naha-te branch) or kata spawned an emphasis of body mass delivery as seen in Japan. Don't see/understand the connection you're making here or how pre-sport karate contributed to it, so I'll have to disagree here.

If talking Shotokan, it’s early steps into randori/free sparring weren’t that successful but soon reality set in, sensing and timing won first place.

I agree that proficient Shotokan practitioners have great timing. I still remember a kidney punch I received from one of them in a tournament that owed its success to that skill.

“One strike one kill” concept is easy to misunderstand as an all one power strike with emphasis on “power”. The original idea is taken from the Jigen-ryu sword school’s “one cut one kill” which has to do with having a correct judgement (subconsciously)when to draw the sword to one’s advantage

I agree here. I remember one of their teachings was, "If the first cut is not successful the fight is already lost" and has a deeper meaning as you said. Even though early Shuri-te karate masters Sakugawa and Matsumura were schooled in Jigen-ryu, I believe the (mis)application of this concept to karate power developed in Japan.

This was seen in early tournaments here when Shotokan judges (more than others) would only score a point if an individual technique's potential power could have produced serious injury if fully landed. Leading side snapping attacks were not favored. In kata competition also, Okinawan stylists were at a distinct disadvantage as they did not have the deep power moves favored by the Japanese.

When I mention the “Okinawan way” I probably point to the Itosu karate reformation era.

As karate was introduced into the school system (early 1900's) and became "do," emphasis turned to how each single technique was executed in terms of form, posture and power. While this originated in Okinawa, it was carried further and embraced in the Shotokan.

 

[Same Trick]

I don't think body hardening practice (mostly stressed in Naha-te branch) or kata spawned an emphasis of body mass delivery as seen in Japan. Don't see/understand the connection you're making here or how pre-sport karate contributed to it, so I'll have to disagree here.

I agree that proficient Shotokan practitioners have great timing. I still remember a kidney punch I received from one of them in a tournament that owed its success to that skill.

I agree here. I remember one of their teachings was, "If the first cut is not successful the fight is already lost" and has a deeper meaning as you said. Even though early Shuri-te karate masters Sakugawa and Matsumura were schooled in Jigen-ryu, I believe the (mis)application of this concept to karate power developed in Japan.

This was seen in early tournaments here when Shotokan judges (more than others) would only score a point if an individual technique's potential power could have produced serious injury if fully landed. Leading side snapping attacks were not favored. In kata competition also, Okinawan stylists were at a distinct disadvantage as they did not have the deep power moves favored by the Japanese.

As karate was introduced into the school system (early 1900's) and became "do," emphasis turned to how each single technique was executed in terms of form, posture and power. While this originated in Okinawa, it was carried further and embraced in the Shotokan.

Yes, thinking two more seconds on it I actually agree with you here

 

[marvin8]

I would think that force is directly proportional to velocity, that's why a baseball going at 100 mph will hit the catcher's mitt harder than a baseball going at 80 mph.

You might be able to throw a jab in less time than it would take you to throw a rear hand cross but that's because your hand is traveling a shorter distance, the jab is a shorter punch, but that doesn't mean your hand will reach a higher speed in terms of mph when you throw a jab as opposed to when you throw a cross.

That's when you add mass into the equation, but the mass of your hand or foot doesn't change so if you want to gain power it would make sense to work on stuff that you can change.

I'm short on time at the moment to give an adequate answer. I believe it is more complicated than that. You can throw faster, weak chain punches without getting your weight behind them. "Training to Achieve a Better Punch:"

"Practice punching slow. The most powerful punches aren't actually the fastest ones. Your arm can move more quickly than the rest of your body, so waiting for your body to catch up to a punch slows the punch down. Even though a powerful punch is a slower one, there will be moments when you have just enough time to execute a slow but extremely forceful punch. It's worth practicing punching at a slower speed so you can feel the full power that comes when you give your body time to get behind your fist.

• Try punching at half speed when you're training. Force yourself to slow down and focus on using your leg muscles and torso to maximize your power.
• Remember where that power came from when you speed things up. While you'd never punch at half speed during a match, you can focus on using your legs and torso to generate as much power as possible."

3 Ways to Punch Harder and Faster - wikiHow

Mastering a quick, powerful punch is fundamental to becoming a good boxer. It starts with perfecting your form and using your whole body, not just your arm, to generate force. Learning how to aim correctly and punch within range will give...

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