Speed Vs Power

[PhotonGuy]

My primary art is Karate and therefore Im posting this in the Karate folder but this same concept can be applied to any striking art. So anyway, I've heard talk about people who have tremendous speed but not much power which I find a bit confusing. If you've got speed you're going to have power. Why? Because speed is power. The more speed you've got the more power you've got.

It works like this, the faster your hand or foot goes the harder it will hit, that's quite obvious. Just like how in Baseball a fastball pitch is going to hit the catcher's glove harder than a curve ball. Why? Because the fastball is faster than the curveball, therefore it hits harder when it lands in the catcher's glove. By the same concept the faster your punch or kick goes the harder it will hit when it hits your opponent, so speed is power.

 

[Badhabits]

The speed is to accelerate mass, which generates momentum.... Someone can totally be very fast but not generate much momentum due to not getting much mass in motion. Like only having the arm in motion without body mass behind it. Then there's structure...your own body dissapating/absorbing your own momentum.....efficient delivery of the momentum..... More to it than just speed. We can't move at the speed of a bullet. As humans when we're talking about speed we need mass as well. And be able to efficiently deliver that into our target.

 

[Badhabits]

When we talk about hitting with power we're not really talking about how much force we generate, it comes down to how much force we actually transmit into our target. Even the amount of time the fist is in contact with the target affects this part of it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

have tremendous speed but not much power which I find a bit confusing.

Power = compress and release

It takes time to have a full compressing with the whole-body unification. When you compress halfway and release for speed, you will only generate 50% power.

If you watch these 2 "power generation" videos, a punch take about 1 second to complete. In combat, 1 second can be too long.

If you watch these 2 "speed generation" videos, a punch take less than 1/4 second. But those punches may not have enough knock down power because a punch is not fully compressed.

 

[Haruhiko]

My primary art is Karate and therefore Im posting this in the Karate folder but this same concept can be applied to any striking art. So anyway, I've heard talk about people who have tremendous speed but not much power which I find a bit confusing. If you've got speed you're going to have power. Why? Because speed is power. The more speed you've got the more power you've got.

It works like this, the faster your hand or foot goes the harder it will hit, that's quite obvious. Just like how in Baseball a fastball pitch is going to hit the catcher's glove harder than a curve ball. Why? Because the fastball is faster than the curveball, therefore it hits harder when it lands in the catcher's glove. By the same concept the faster your punch or kick goes the harder it will hit when it hits your opponent, so speed is power.

You need power (F) for speed, and the more mass (m) you're trying to accelerate (a) in the strike, the more force one needs to be "speedy".

F = m * a

If you want your "F" to be a high number, you need to be transfering your "m" with as much "a" as possible.

But not everyone has the same mass. The solution in competition? Weight divisions.

 

[Same Trick]

”timing beats speed, precision beats power”

Someone said

 

[PhotonGuy]

When we talk about hitting with power we're not really talking about how much force we generate, it comes down to how much force we actually transmit into our target. Even the amount of time the fist is in contact with the target affects this part of it.

True, just because you're hitting with force doesn't always mean you're hitting with power. If you've got a very strong strike but it's slow it won't hurt your opponent much because it will become more of a push rather than a strike. Much like a bulldozer, a bulldozer pushes with tremendous force but its slow. When your strike is slow it becomes a push instead of a strike so even if its a very strong push you're not going to hurt your opponent much, you'll move them but you won't hurt them.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Power = compress and release

It takes time to have a full compressing with the whole-body unification. When you compress halfway and release for speed, you will only generate 50% power.

If you watch these 2 "power generation" videos, a punch take about 1 second to complete. In combat, 1 second can be too long.

If you watch these 2 "speed generation" videos, a punch take less than 1/4 second. But those punches may not have enough knock down power because a punch is not fully compressed.

I see. What I think of when I watch the videos is a 9mm Uzi vs a .270 bolt action rifle. An Uzi has a much faster rate of fire as it's a full automatic as opposed to the .270 which has a very slow rate of fire as you have to work the bolt in between each shot. However, the .270 has a much higher muzzle velocity, a .270 slug can have muzzle velocities of over 3500 fps, much faster than that of a 9mm, and its going to do much more damage, a .270 can take down medium and even large game, not something a 9mm is effective at.

So the 9mm has a faster rate of fire, but the ,270 has a higher muzzle velocity and more power, that's how I see the comparison of the two sets of videos you provide.

 

[Badhabits]

True, just because you're hitting with force doesn't always mean you're hitting with power. If you've got a very strong strike but it's slow it won't hurt your opponent much because it will become more of a push rather than a strike. Much like a bulldozer, a bulldozer pushes with tremendous force but its slow. When your strike is slow it becomes a push instead of a strike so even if its a very strong push you're not going to hurt your opponent much, you'll move them but you won't hurt them.

It's deeper than that even. Hit a target with two punches, both have equal speed and momentum. In the first punch the fist is snapped back after, so the fist is in contact with target say 1/4 of a second. Second punch isn't snapped back as fast, fist in contact with target for 1/2 second.
The transfer of momentum will be different for each punch, having slightly different effects on target. You can test it on a heavy bag. Make the bag shiver/dance instead of moving away when you hit it. You can hit it with the same speed and force but get different results. How the momentum transfers is actually what we call "power", not how much force we generate in the punch itself. This gets into the territory of shock wave throughout the body when struck, causing vibrations in the target etc. Stuff that sounds woo woo but its real, it can be demonstrated and felt. That old trick of holding a phone book to your chest while someone good hits it with a whipping/snapping punch.

 

[Badhabits]

I have a real world example, not with a punch but the same principle. Since bullets were mentioned. A few years ago we had a stray bullet come through our window and barely chipped the edge of our big tv. There was a teeny tiny chip in the edge of the plastic frame around the edge. The screen didn't crack, chip nothing. Tv didn't move a millimeter. TV still died. Transfer of momentum from the bullet throughout still killed it even though there basically no physical damage

 

[marvin8]

speed is power. The more speed you've got the more power you've got.

False. Power = Force x Velocity: This physics formula clearly shows that power requires both force (strength) and velocity (speed). An arm punch (e.g., jab) can be faster than a whole body punch (e.g., rear hand cross) but less powerful.

Punch Force - The Science Behind The Punch

Punch Force | Boxing | Strength and Conditioning | Sport Science | MMA

boxingscience.co.uk

 

[windwalker099]

”timing beats speed, precision beats power”

Someone said

The video touches on this...

You won't be able to see the clip,,some of the commentary

He uses the word "Tango" to mean "timing and precision" like the movement in a dance "Tango"



"So he punched, Pushed up to here, You grab here, Push hand...distance…speed. Look at this, There is no distance in the shape, there is a distance in my heart. Distance in your heart, understand? Look at it, after this touch, its finished open.

After his hand blocking at me, no point, so you are not using your hand to push, you take your heart to push, here, you see! Here has a distance, here has a distance, see my hand, and he touched my hand. This step method, Look at my back of my body, look! When I move, just a move “Tango”, You See! He did blocked, Just a move, see “Tango”, when it is moving “Tango”, a move “Tango”. So if your hand after touching by the other partyIt’s confrontation! Soft! Trance! Or Intermittent! You handle this Gong Fu knowledge, so you hand need to be light."

"To fall other, what you push is the way, you see! Inside here! You see, this is internally.Can't see from the outside, what you see from outside are all fake. It’s all fake, you see ！Real one no action yet, that is the bullet inside, When you holding the gun and fight, that is fooled. Can't fight like that, use the bullet. YI and QI be the bullet, He block this direction, look, you see! This confrontation force can be hit, see! Towards there, how much, right? I slanting attract, out from portion now. You are focused on him now, Straight force... right?"


The bullet inside refers to Intent (意, Yì) Qi (气, Qì)

 

[HighKick]

False. Power = Force x Velocity: This physics formula clearly shows that power requires both force (strength) and velocity (speed). An arm punch (e.g., jab) can be faster than a whole body punch (e.g., rear hand cross) but less powerful.

Punch Force - The Science Behind The Punch

Punch Force | Boxing | Strength and Conditioning | Sport Science | MMA

boxingscience.co.uk

Yes, but the variables are not equals in the equation. Force is increased exponentially the higher the speed input value is. In contrast, a massive Mass moving at a very low speed makes the force created useless in most situation.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I've heard talk about people who have tremendous speed but not much power which I find a bit confusing.

Keep it simple. Think of it like this. Speed without power is like a be flapping its wings. Point sparring is a good example of speed without power.

This is even better. This video shows speed without power. But it also shows power increases. Think of speed as something that doesn't drive through the target. We can see this in the video. When you look at the pad holder's arms you can see that they barely move and, in some cases, don't move. Power always drives through the target. And you can see slight power increases by watching the pad holder's arm. Watch for the arm to have significant movement. That significant movement is when there was an increase in power. Overall, many of us would put this into the "Speed and no power"

Power drives through the target and drives beyond the surface of the target. Think of it like this and the world will make sense.

Sort of like turning on a TV. Understand that the tv comes on when you push the on button and goes off when you push the off button. Knowing more beyond that is just going to create more confusion and not less.

Speed doesn't drive through the target
Power drives through the target.
The only way speed can drive through the target is to add power which involves tons of other stuff that has to be applied. But don't worry about that. keep it simple

 

[marvin8]

Yes, but the variables are not equals in the equation. Force is increased exponentially the higher the speed input value is. In contrast, a massive Mass moving at a very low speed makes the force created useless in most situation.

Yes, no one said they are. A pole is not moving, yet running into one can create significant force. It is the same with a punch that an opponent walks onto.

 

[Fungus]

so speed is power.

Most of these comments blur related concepts.

When it comes to inflicting damage or pain, breaking a brick, or kicking in a door, one needs to look at two things.

1. Peak Force in the strike or punch

Limb speed (given any limb-mass) mainly determines the instant peak force for example when you strike a non-deflecting object, like a brittle brick. Alot of breaking techniques, required high force, but not always lots of energy. So the speed is key as it determines peak breaking force.

As long as the enegy is "sufficient", and the peak force > breaking force, it will break.

2. Total energy in the strike or punch

If you hit an object that deflects alot, like trying to deflect a heavy bag, or punch or kick someone out of balance (ie a punch with a lot of "push"), then the total energy transfer is the integral of force over the penetration path. And here the peak force may be instant, and only helping out with a fraction of the energy. So here maintaining good force over the whole penetration path requires solid rooting and backing up the force all the way. This is less about speed, and more about maintaining rooting and power for longer time.

If you try to make a brittle byt hard brick, peak force and speed is the key.
But if you want to strike and transfer maxium energi into the your opponent, or heavy bag, then speed is less important.

I think both things has it's place, and they don't contradict each other, but it is hard to maintain peak force over large penetration distance. So unless the distance management is perfect, it can easily loose effect. When breaking a brick, this is a nonissue as you have full control and all the time you need to establish distance.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Speed without power is like a be flapping its wings. Point sparring is a good example of speed without power.

I wouldn't go quite this far. A flicking backfist or jab without mass behind it with gloves does little damage. The same move without gloves with hard knuckles hitting your cheekbone hurts a lot and can cause injury. The same thing with a fast, snapping roundhouse kick with the ball of the foot to the ribs - it can cause pain and even crack the rib.

With a hard weapon hitting against a hard target, speed without body mass behind it can still have an effect. The natural mass of the arm or leg is enough when propelled with speed. While not causing a knockout or serious damage, these kinds of strikes can certainly advance one's attack in a fight. As a point fighter in the pre-pads era, I've been on both sides of the examples given in the first paragraph.

Chuck and Benny were top point fighters, very quick. They were both top full contact fighters as well. Each skill set can be used, and one can transition from one to the other as required.

As for the fighting style shown in your competition video - it's like play fighting. There is little in common here with what I know as karate.

 

[PhotonGuy]

You need power (F) for speed, and the more mass (m) you're trying to accelerate (a) in the strike, the more force one needs to be "speedy".

F = m * a

If you want your "F" to be a high number, you need to be transfering your "m" with as much "a" as possible.

But not everyone has the same mass. The solution in competition? Weight divisions.

True, not everybody has the same sized hands or the same sized feet, just look at how much shoe sizes vary.

But all other factors being equal, it would make sense that a punch or kick that's going faster would hit harder.

 

[PhotonGuy]

It's deeper than that even. Hit a target with two punches, both have equal speed and momentum. In the first punch the fist is snapped back after, so the fist is in contact with target say 1/4 of a second. Second punch isn't snapped back as fast, fist in contact with target for 1/2 second.
The transfer of momentum will be different for each punch, having slightly different effects on target. You can test it on a heavy bag. Make the bag shiver/dance instead of moving away when you hit it. You can hit it with the same speed and force but get different results. How the momentum transfers is actually what we call "power", not how much force we generate in the punch itself. This gets into the territory of shock wave throughout the body when struck, causing vibrations in the target etc. Stuff that sounds woo woo but its real, it can be demonstrated and felt. That old trick of holding a phone book to your chest while someone good hits it with a whipping/snapping punch.

Well yes, my first style that I trained in Shi-to Ryu, emphasized snapping your technique back quickly after you landed it. My other style, Goju Ryu, doesn't emphasize it so much. From my experience, you do get more effect when you snap back your punch faster, although you want to get full extension of your arm (or leg if you're throwing a kick.)

What I've noticed with guys who are really good, when they hit a heavy bag they don't necessarily cause the bag to swing that much, instead they cause the bag to fold. The bag folds in from where they strike it rather than swinging a great distance.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I have a real world example, not with a punch but the same principle. Since bullets were mentioned. A few years ago we had a stray bullet come through our window and barely chipped the edge of our big tv. There was a teeny tiny chip in the edge of the plastic frame around the edge. The screen didn't crack, chip nothing. Tv didn't move a millimeter. TV still died. Transfer of momentum from the bullet throughout still killed it even though there basically no physical damage

The bullet no doubt caused vibrations in the TV that damaged the internal electronics.

BTW where are you from? Where is a place where you have random bullets coming through your window other than a war zone?