Speed and Power

[Mark L]

"When talking power, it doesn't matter how long it takes the weapon to arrive at the target, since no energy (power) can transfer until it makes contact."

If we are talking about the science of Physics, I agree; but when talking speed in martial arts, that is in fact the specific definition (of one type of speed).

dictionary.com lists 22 defintions for "speed" LOL

I didn't say speed, I said "When talking power ...", you quoted it, then in the very next sentence changed to "when talking speed". Power delivered doesn't matter how long it takes to get to the target. That's not my opinion, that's a fact. The science of physics applies to martial arts.

But if you have to be right, its not important enough to me to argue ...

 

[BallistikMike]

I think you are confusing power with effectiveness.

I think you should re-read the post and reconsider.

I quite clearly stated what effects speed, accuracy, target choice and penetration have on power. I am sorry if you failed to comprehend it but it was stated.

To be blunt power is the effect you have on a person upon impact. Thats what we are talking about. Thats what power is.

Its an effect you have on a human being or bag or focus mitt and we are trying to give it a value and explain how we came about that value.

Speed is the easiest value to change when coming up with a "power" value and its the speed of travel upon impact not the time of travel reaching the traget. What also gets thrown out is distance. Which has a direct relationship with timing.

Power is a complicated matter and different strokes for different folks on how they achieve it. Myself its quite simple heavy hands on impact creating the desired effect of a knockout shot. Fighters will understand this and agree, speed kills.

 

[Mark L]

... and its the speed of travel upon impact not the time of travel reaching the traget. What also gets thrown out is distance. Which has a direct relationship with timing.

The distance traveled during the time of impact, right? That's largely determined by the speed at and through impact.

Power is a complicated matter and different strokes for different folks on how they achieve it. Myself its quite simple heavy hands on impact creating the desired effect of a knockout shot. Fighters will understand this and agree, speed kills.

Are you equating 'heavy hands' with delivering energy to the target in a short time, perceived as speed? That's been my experience.

 

[Touch Of Death]

From a self defense perspective, power trumps speed in most cases. Each strike should cause damage, not annoy someone. If analogies are peoples thing, which would you rather not be hit with. A 100 mph marshmallow or a 50 mph truck?

From the perspective of a teacher, I would like my students to learn how to generate power first. If one follows the various principles that most kenpo systems teach, speed will come in time anyways.

I'm not sure I concur. All a person needs to do to an opponent is give cause for hesitation. If you can do it over and over fast, it is just as good as doing it a few times really hard.
Sean

 

[DavidCC]

I didn't say speed, I said "When talking power ...", you quoted it, then in the very next sentence changed to "when talking speed". Power delivered doesn't matter how long it takes to get to the target. That's not my opinion, that's a fact. The science of physics applies to martial arts.

what you said was -" When talking power, it doesn't matter how long it takes the weapon to arrive at the target" which is a statement relating speed to power, the whole point of the thread; and I pointed out that "how long it takes the weapon to get to the target" is in fact one definition of speed.

The OP was comparing the importance of speed (the rate at which a person executes a technique) with power (how hard the person hits).

Bringing in specific definitions as used in a different scientific discipline (other than martial arts) is not helping answer the OP question. We might as well talk about the maximum size of a lens aperture and the abiltiy to influence political decisions (which are both both valid definitions of "speed" and "power" from fields of study other than martial arts) LOL.

"Power delivery" ??? I thought you defined power as the delivery of energy????????? how can I have delivery of a delivery? If you are going to use specific technical definitions to make your point you should at least use them consistently.


Mark as far as I can tell the only contention we have here is that you were referencing the amount of time the weapons was in contact with the target as the "SPEED". That is not what he was asking about, nor was the OP even asking aobut the speed at which a weapon travels. He was clearly asking about the rate at which the person executes a technique, which you haven't addressed yet.
-------------

Mike,

Me -> "I think you are confusing power with effectiveness"
Mike -> "To be blunt power is the effect you have on a person upon impact."

OK so if you think power is the effect, how are you not defining power as effectiveness????? (which IMO is in fact a confusion of terms)

I think one can deliver a high-power shot to a resistant target and get mimnimal effect; also one can deliver a low-power shot to a vulnerable target and get a huge effect. Do you agree or disagree with that?


"I am sorry if you failed to comprehend it but it was stated." ROFL I disagree therefore I must not have understood. Could you be more condescending???

-----------------
Sean,
"I'm not sure I concur. All a person needs to do to an opponent is give cause for hesitation. If you can do it over and over fast, it is just as good as doing it a few times really hard.
Sean "

I think that is mostly true but at some point you have to do more than that.

 

[Mark L]

How about if I just agree that you're right, on this and everything else you say.

I hope someday I'll have as much kempo knowledge and experience as you. Ignore on.

 

[DavidCC]

How about if I just agree that you're right, on this and everything else you say.

I hope someday I'll have as much kempo knowledge and experience as you. Ignore on.

Whatever Mark, that's very immature. The fact is your post never addressed the original question.

I hope you deal with questions from your students better than this, because if this is how you teach, I'd have to say you are really "selling them short".

Is this how you handle disagreements in general? Temper-tantrums? Grow up, grow a pair, and learn how to have a discussion already.

 

[Doc]

I think "timing" trumps them both.

You have two receivers in football. One is lightening fast but is never open, the other is slow, but runs good routes and is always open. Who do you throw the ball to?

We go to the range and combat shoot. The rookies are really fast but never hit the target. Some older veterans take their time and place the shot right between the horns. Who was the most effective?

My point is a simple one. Speed is an asset, but only one in a realistic scenario, and alone is as ineffective as no speed at all.

In some of the newer commercial martial arts, speed is "sold" as the only asset necessary to be effective. It is packaged as supreme in lieu of all other factors of rational thought.

It has people throwing punches in a technique line, than freezing in place so someone can do all these really cool moves, as if in a fight nobody moves after the first punch, or reacts to being hit.

It can be alluring and impressive to the unknowledgeable, but this speed emphasis alone will neither yield the anticipated effective results, nor lasting skills that may be raised to higher levels.

You do not "train" for speed. You learn properly and over time, you become fast if you were taught properly. Beginning with speed yields the opposite results, with a steady decline over time.

Or as Mr. Parker taught me, "Speed is a byproduct of proper mechanics, mental, and physical familiarity." When I would tell him I thought he was fast, He would always say, "It's smoke and mirrors. I'm mechanically sound, I know and understand what I'm doing, and I have great timing. That's what translates to speed my friend."

 

[MJS]

Great replies! Keep 'em coming!

IMO, speed and power are 2 different things. You can blaze thru a form with speed and not have any power in your strikes, just like you could blaze thru a technique and the strikes are barely there. I tend to, as I said in my OP, to fall back more on the power than the speed. Not to say that we shouldn't be quick, but I'd rather put power in front of speed.

 

[JTKenpo]

"Draw fast, shoot slow" is a quote from a very talented Hawaiin Kempo master which he gave out at one of his seminars. He expanded on the point by saying our initial move should be lightening fast and our subsequent and follow up motions need to be deadly accurate. His point was speed for speed sake is useless. I also believe there are few people with the one punch knock out power some arts claim to have. So there needs to be a good combination of both.

 

[girlbug2]

do we agree that there are two types of power: penetrating and percussive(sp)

Kind of like my head splitting as I'm trying to wrap it around all the definitions in this thread

 

[Mark L]

Great replies! Keep 'em coming!

IMO, speed and power are 2 different things. You can blaze thru a form with speed and not have any power in your strikes, just like you could blaze thru a technique and the strikes are barely there. I tend to, as I said in my OP, to fall back more on the power than the speed. Not to say that we shouldn't be quick, but I'd rather put power in front of speed.

Maybe I'm not getting it. Proper execution gives rise to speed and power, they are companions.

 

[MJS]

Well, I thought my OP was clear. I was asking what everyone feels is more important...speed or power. Where the discussion goes from there could be anywhere. And actually that seems to be the path its taking, which is perfectly fine. I'm no physics major, so I'll bow out of the speed=power type of discussions.

As for your question Mark...I'll go back to my kata and technique examples. I've seen people blast thru a kata so fast, throwing half hearted strikes, just for the sake of getting done. I've seen the same with techniques. Its fine and dandy to go quick, but if all you're doing is slapping the person, what good is that? Thats probably the #1 reason why Kenpo is referred to as a "Slap Art" because thats all it looks like.

IMHO, the goal should be to harness both speed and power, but for me, a bit more emphasis on the power. Of course, if a punch is coming we want to be able to block and counter quick. But we can do that 2 ways...block and throw a half hearted shot just for the sake of hitting, or throw a shot thats going to have some effect.

Mike

 

[Mark L]

Well, I thought my OP was clear. I was asking what everyone feels is more important...speed or power. Where the discussion goes from there could be anywhere. And actually that seems to be the path its taking, which is perfectly fine. I'm no physics major, so I'll bow out of the speed=power type of discussions.

As for your question Mark...I'll go back to my kata and technique examples. I've seen people blast thru a kata so fast, throwing half hearted strikes, just for the sake of getting done. I've seen the same with techniques. Its fine and dandy to go quick, but if all you're doing is slapping the person, what good is that? Thats probably the #1 reason why Kenpo is referred to as a "Slap Art" because thats all it looks like.

IMHO, the goal should be to harness both speed and power, but for me, a bit more emphasis on the power. Of course, if a punch is coming we want to be able to block and counter quick. But we can do that 2 ways...block and throw a half hearted shot just for the sake of hitting, or throw a shot thats going to have some effect.

Mike

I agree with you. I try to do the form/technique properly first, with good balance, precise movements and targeting. As I get comfortable with the mechanics I increase power, which (in my experience) builds speed. I don't practice a "slap art".