Speed and Power In Your Strikes

[pete]

mass, velocity, and resistance are all EQUAL factors in determining POWER. you can't simply isolate one of them, and improve it while compromising the other two and expect positive results.

mass: improve by either adding (bulk up) or using more of what you already have.

velocity: NOT overall speed of doing a technique from start to finish as fast as possible, but increasing the quickness with which the strike is delivered from point of origin through target.

resistance: elimination of muscular tension and stiffness will eliminate resistance of the contractor muscles, which affects velocity. good posture and coordinated movement will eliminate resistance in acheiving whole body unity, which affects mass.

pete

 

[Ray]

Acceleration, not velocity. If I throw a punch at 60 MPH to a target that is backing away at 50 MPH, then I'm only accelerating the target 10 MPH. If the target is approaching my weapon the the accleration and (potentially) the transfer of energy is greater. Look at the techs you practice, which ones bring the next target toward your next strike? If they do the opposite, you should think about whether your getting the effect you desire.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I was thinking a bit more about this Full power = total mass x top speed and you will have to forgive me but physics was a long time ago so I had to look the definition of power up and to be honest speed enters into under force
Force = Mass x Acceleration.

If you have a greater mass accelerating slower that a smaller mass you can get the same or greater force.
A sparrow going 10 mph has MUCH less force than a Bus going 0.5 mph

So if you throw a punch at great speed and are too tense you actually are moving less mass forward but if you relax you can potentially create more force with less speed because you are accelerating greater mass.

Work = force X distance

Work is needed for power
Power on the other hand is the rate at which work is performed or energy is transmitted, or the amount of energy required or expended for a given unit of time. As a rate of change of work done or the energy of a subsystem, power is:
P = W/t
where
P is power
W is work
t is time.

 

[tellner]

Velocity, Acceleration, Jerk, Thump, Work, Power, Total Kinetic Energy transferred, or something else entirely.

Which of these is the important quantity and why?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Velocity, Acceleration, Jerk, Thump, Work, Power, Total Kinetic Energy transferred, or something else entirely.

Which of these is the important quantity and why?

It is all just part of an attempt to show where Power comes from because of the definition supplied by KenpoDave

Full power = total mass x top speed.

 

[Ray]

But power= mass x velocity. Mathematically, if v is less than full v, then p is less than full p. And yes, if m is less than full m, then p is also less than full p.

Full power = total mass x top speed.

Now I see! You're saying power is "mass x velocity" because the physics formula is "p = mv" No, "p" is not power, it is momentum.

And now, after all these posts, I have to ask the question. What do you want to accomplish with that power? Is the "power" to break an arm going to be the same speed and mass as the "power" to knock someone out; and is that going to be the same as to push someone away from you?

BTW: power = work / time. It is the rate at which work is performed, or engergy transmitted.

 

[still learning]

Hello, All those things are easier to say than do....in a actual fight with the adrenline and fear kicking in....most of us will find it hard to relax?

...both sides hitting, blocking, and trying not to get hurt? UM

Can we control our strikes?

NO matter your power or strenghts? ....it is where you hit that is more important.

Also to hit the nose or eyes or groin...does not take much power or speed ....just enough to hurt it (what is just enough?) maybe a little speed and power? .....2X? (normal person)

Again each person is build different....THE TRUTH IS MORE RELAX TO ACTUAL STRIKE/BLOCK....the more power and speed....very simple truths

Everyone can build themselves for more muscles...therefore can gain more power and speed......there is a point most of us can get too...

Remember everyone can kick,punch,block...no matter size or skill....success will come to timing and the right tarkets...a child can hit you in the groin (right place) and drop you...true?

( faster you go? ...the faster you get there...) food is better eaten slow...speed can kill here?

PS: :Life is more fun when pace is slower.....hitting back is more fun if one is faster and more powerful...life must have balance of the right speed.

Kissing can be fast or slow....which is more powerful?

Aloha, better to duck faster?

 

[KenpoDave]

Actually you did say that

No, you said that "total mass" was likely never thrown. I was commenting that I did not say it was. However, for there to actually be "full power," it is my opinion that total mass must be thrown as well.

I am of the opinion that "full power" is one of those goals that you always strive for but never reach.

 

[KenpoDave]

So, let me ask, because I don't think that anyone yet has actually addressed the point that I brought up...

Does anyone believe that a full power can be achieved by hitting slower than you are capable of hitting?

 

[Xue Sheng]

No, you said that "total mass" was likely never thrown. I was commenting that I did not say it was. However, for there to actually be "full power," it is my opinion that total mass must be thrown as well.

I am of the opinion that "full power" is one of those goals that you always strive for but never reach.

You do realize that this is now, at best, useless semantics don't you?

OK, you say you didn't say it but it does from the formula you supplied and now you are saying it.

However, for there to actually be "full power," it is my opinion that total mass must be thrown as well.

And to throw total mass means you are throwing yourself at your opponent much like a rock is thrown from a catapult and if that is the case you have only one shot because you are now flying though the air at your opponent and have no root. And if you’re lucky your opponent does not move or redirect your “total mass”

This is getting a bit to silly for me now, later

 

[Xue Sheng]

So, let me ask, because I don't think that anyone yet has actually addressed the point that I brought up...

Does anyone believe that a full power can be achieved by hitting slower than you are capable of hitting?

Try reading this again and you tell me

Force = Mass x Acceleration.

If you have a greater mass accelerating slower that a smaller mass you can get the same or greater force.

A sparrow going 10 mph has MUCH less force than a Bus going 0.5 mph

So if you throw a punch at great speed and are too tense you actually are moving less mass forward but if you relax you can potentially create more force with less speed because you are accelerating greater mass.

Work = force X distance

Work is needed for power
Power on the other hand is the rate at which work is performed or energy is transmitted, or the amount of energy required or expended for a given unit of time. As a rate of change of work done or the energy of a subsystem, power is:
P = W/t
where
P is power
W is work
t is time.

 

[Danjo]

This whole thread has started to make my head hurt. When it comes to physics, I made a good history major so sorry for starting this whole mess. Let's put away our pocket protectors and get back into our gis.

 

[pete]

Hello, All those things are easier to say than do....in a actual fight with the adrenline and fear kicking in....most of us will find it hard to relax?

...both sides hitting, blocking, and trying not to get hurt? UM

yes, and that is why we learn meditation and train to use those techniques under stress. in other words, first learn what the adrenal glands do and feel the triggers... then practice dissolving the physical (tensions) and the emotional (fear) to eliminate hesitation, anticipation, and other reactive behaviors during altercation.

pete

 

[Josh Oakley]

Another point I'd like to bring up that I haven't seen is it also depends on where you are in relation to your opponent. You could have a fast, well timed, and powerful punch to the correct target, But if you're too far away from your opponent or not in a good position, the punch will not be as effective. I've seen a lot of ineffective kickers with great form.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Another point I'd like to bring up that I haven't seen is it also depends on where you are in relation to your opponent. You could have a fast, well timed, and powerful punch to the correct target, But if you're too far away from your opponent or not in a good position, the punch will not be as effective. I've seen a lot of ineffective kickers with great form.

Position is the third consideration.
Sean

 

[KenpoDave]

You do realize that this is now, at best, useless semantics don't you?

It happens when you don't address the point.

OK, you say you didn't say it but it does from the formula you supplied and now you are saying it.

Sigh. Again, I am saying that full power requires total mass. You are saying that throwing total mass is not beneficial because one is not anchored, and you are saying that because of my example, I have said that total mass can or should be thrown. That is not what I have said. It may be useless semantics, but you are not addressing what I said in the context that I said it.

So, I will ask again, no semantics...Do you, Xue Sheng, believe that you can strike with full power at less than full speed?

See, I believe this...If, by throwing a strike, block, kick, etc. at full speed, you sacrifice power, then you should slow down and get your timing right. Once your timing is right, you should start to speed back up and maintain that correct timing.

And to throw total mass means you are throwing yourself at your opponent much like a rock is thrown from a catapult and if that is the case you have only one shot because you are now flying though the air at your opponent and have no root. And if you’re lucky your opponent does not move or redirect your “total mass”

I am not disputing that. Personally, I believe that training with full power in mind is useful. Attempting to strike full power in a fight is a gamble, for the reasons you stated. I think it is important to know the difference between a fully committed strike and an over committed strike.

 

[KenpoDave]

Try reading this again and you tell me

Force = Mass x Acceleration.

If you have a greater mass accelerating slower that a smaller mass you can get the same or greater force.

A sparrow going 10 mph has MUCH less force than a Bus going 0.5 mph

So if you throw a punch at great speed and are too tense you actually are moving less mass forward but if you relax you can potentially create more force with less speed because you are accelerating greater mass.

Work = force X distance

Work is needed for power
Power on the other hand is the rate at which work is performed or energy is transmitted, or the amount of energy required or expended for a given unit of time. As a rate of change of work done or the energy of a subsystem, power is:
P = W/t
where
P is power
W is work
t is time.

You are addressing more power, less power, greater power.

What about full power?
P=W/t
W=Fd
P=Fd/t
F=ma
d/t=v (velocity)
P=mav

So, Power = mass x acceleration x velocity. Thanks, that makes good sense to me.

Now, it is simple multiplication. If any of the three variables m, a, or v, is less than it's full potential, then P is not it's full potential either.

 

[Ray]

You are addressing more power, less power, greater power.

What about full power?
P=W/t
W=Fd
P=Fd/t
F=ma
d/t=v (velocity)
P=mav

So, Power = mass x acceleration x velocity. Thanks, that makes good sense to me.

Now, it is simple multiplication. If any of the three variables m, a, or v, is less than it's full potential, then P is not it's full potential either.

Acceleration is (final velocity minus starting velocity) divided by time.
So no, P does not equal mass * acceleration * velocity.
And no, 'P' is MOMENTUM, not power in P=MV

 

[KenpoDave]

Acceleration is (final velocity minus starting velocity) divided by time.
So no, P does not equal mass * acceleration * velocity.
And no, 'P' is MOMENTUM, not power in P=MV

Doing the algebra from P=W/t, that is what you come up with.

If P=W/t, and W=Fd, and F=ma, then W=(ma)d, and P=mad/t, and since d/t=v, then P=(ma)v. If P=(ma)v is incorrect, sorry, I was working off the equation posted.

Here it is from www.physicsclassroom.com

"The expression for power is work/time. Now since the expression for work is force*displacement, the expression for power can be rewritten as (force*displacement)/time. Yet since the expression for velocity is displacement/time, the expression for power can be rewritten once more as force*velocity. This is shown below.

Now, if Power=Force times velocity, and Force=mass times acceleration, then yes, Power does equal mass times acceleration times velocity. It is pretty straightforward.

What I have discovered over the last day, is that no one will answer the question...Can you hit full power without hitting full speed? Everyone became wrapped up in either what the equation actually is, or whether total mass can or should be thrown, that the point was never addressed.

It is a simple yes or no question...Does anyone believe, using the above equation posted from www.physicsclassroom.com, that full power can be achieved without full force or full velocity?

 

[pete]

dave, i've been following this thread and agree with your deductions. i orignally threw 'resistance' into the mix, as this is a human/physical application of power, therefore 'technique' has a lot to do with the actual manifestation. however, i can agree that resistance is a negative sub-cat of both force and velocity, a factor that would limit one's ability to reach full potential, therefore limit full power.

however, where i see this 'resistance/technique' thing coming more into play is in actual usage, where one may have to govern his total power by self inflicted resistenace, or 'counter balance' to avoid 'over-committment' of the attack.

pete