special forces training

[Cruentus]

Cool; thanks Matt.

I remembered from what some Marines showed me of the LINE system was that it seemed like they were trying to move "through" the opponent to get somewhere rather then "squaring off" as if to spar them. It seemed very tactically sound to me considering the battlefield environment.

Another question, if you don't mind: What was the basic origin of LINE? I thought someone told me way back when that it was mostly an Isreali system modified to meet Marine standards?

I agree with the idea that you shouldn't be looking to spar or roll around on the ground with your opponent if you ever get into a H2H situation on the battlefield. The grappling has its place and does its job for the army basics, but as a soldier I would seek additional training if that was my only experience. Rangers and SF have some FMA with sticks and knives worked into their program, which is a good thing. I would think that it would be more likely that you will have a weapon of opportunity or combat knife available for H2H rather then grappling and working submissions unarmed as the best option. And I understand that the army "Combatives" authors based the doctrine behind the old Col. Applegate saying that "the one who wins the hand-to-hand fight is the one who's buddies arrive with the rifle first." This statement may hold some truth in the right context, yet in small teams, like LRS 6 man teams for example, you don't have the luxary to wait for your friends. Not to mention, what if his friends are likely to arrive first, regardless of what team your on!? I like the idea of going through my attacker to get to safety or a weapon, rather then sticking around and sparring or rolling with him.

Just my thought on the subject.

 

[Cruentus]

Just to add to this sort of dead topic;

I just picked up "H2H - Modern Army Combatives" by Greg Thompson and Kid Peligro: http://www.h2h.us/info.html

For those interested in the current army program, besides getting a copy of the field manual, I highly recommend this book as well. It is very well done with great illustrations and abilities to connect techniques and concepts together in book format.

Though there are still some things that I would personally do differently then the MAC program, however, I can see where this has evolved already, at least compared to SFC Matt Larsons revised edition of FM-21-150 where BJJ was introduced as the foundation, You can see some discussions on this here for background, as well as some of the "yays and neighs" : http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10166&page=1&pp=15

What I saw in this version (called MAC) that wasn't emphasized as much in the manual is an expansion on the idea that "the one who gets to a weapon 1st wins the H2H encounter." So quite a bit was dedicated to weapon retention and control/clinching/grappling tactics geared towards getting to a weapon quickly (knife, gear, firearm) rather then competitive grappling, although competitive grappling was still the primary foundation of skills. This idea and emphasis something I am definatily on board with, as when I taught/teach some of our soldiers, I emphasize getting to a combat knife or firearm quickly rather then just rolling.

Again, there are still some things I would do differently if I were in charge, but it is nice to see the evolution of this going in a positive direction...

 

[kaizasosei]

i found it really interesting when i saw some military training where they would all form a large circle and then take turns fighting inside it...not unlike the ufc but with a more carefree nothing special attitude.




j

 

[Kage-Ronin]

U.S. Army - modified BJJ + modified Tae Kwon Do
U.S. Air Force and U.S. Navy - same as Army
U.S. Marines - as Army + modified Aikido + Mauy Thai + Kali.

The services also teach knive, bayoneted rifle, and pugel stick (think a long staff). But I'm not sure were they got it form. I have no idea what the Brits teach, but I imagine it's similar. Notice that the Marines teach the most. Why? Theres is more then just the good old fashioned "you learn it in boot camp, and that's about it". They have a defined ranking system (white, tan, green, brown, and then 6 degrees of black). When you go through boot camp you are trianed to tan belt. After that, learning more is optional. But you get points toward promotion, so folks have a reason to keep training.
And Jeff why would you not say that what the army teaches is not a martial art? The Marines even call there hand to hand combat program "Marine Corps Martial Arts Program" (or mcmap).

Howdy,

Chief Petty Officer, USN here. Just as a point of clarification: regular joe navy sailors do not receive any H2H combat training as part of a regular curriculum.
The SF portions I believe do their own thing, (SEAL/ SWCC/ EOD), but don't quote me on that.
We do get some very basic, dumbed-down take-down and arresting skills taught as part of our security response training on a one-time occurence - but that is it. (In my opinion it is next to worthless.) And if you don't fill that billet, you don't get that training.
Just thought you should know.

~Rob Acox

 

[HelloKitty]

my master trained with groups of US army and air force when he was younger. i think they recieve training in several tipes of martial arts and other techniques.

 

[chinto]

hi , does anybody know what martial arts are taught in the british and american army?

thanks,

chris

last I heard they were using an amalgimation of the old WWII Aplgate/Fairbairn combatives and some techniques from tkd and a bunch of the bjj stuff has been added becouse its 'populer' and the MMA sport popularity.

I would sugest that if you want to train, I have known some special ops people who all trained in a traditional style and then did the training that the army gave.. When I asked they all said "every one in the special operations comunity study some art, usulay one of the older traditional arts."

 

[Guardian]

I'm curious about your sources...

As far as I know, only the USMC has an actual "martial art" approach to teaching their hand-to-hand combatives. (Google Marine Corp Martial Arts, and you'll surely find info on it.) It's a relatively new development, though the USMC has had a systematic approach to hand-to-hand for at least 15 or 20 years, under a few different names. I used to work with a former Marine who had been part of the team developing and teaching their Line Combat System (or something similar in name) in the mid to late 90s.

Otherwise, my understanding is that military hand-to-hand is like police defensive tactics. It uses some moves that are common to many martial arts, unified under some common principles and goals. For a cop, that's survival and getting the bad guy cuffed & stuffed; for a soldier, it's survival, and killing an enemy when you are forced to use bare hands. BOTH emphasize that going hands-on with someone isn't exactly the ideal goal... It's more something to do when the ideal situation has fallen apart.

The various special forces, as I understand it, just get more practice and more intense focus on using the hand-to-hand because they stand a greater chance than a "ordinary" soldier to actually have need for using them.

It's important to understand that military (and law enforcement) training doesn't really have time to teach much hand-to-hand, and that they're not going to devote a lot of their limited time to martial arts type defensive training. It's not their game... Beyond the standard training, many cops and many service members do seek out more advanced training on their own time. (This is where you get the people bragging about "teaching to law enforcement and the military" all too often... For law enforcement, if they're not a certified defensive tactics instructor, odds are very good that they're also not a formal training resource for law enforcement. I'd be willing to bet there are similar qualifications for military instructors.)

Oh... and as to pugil sticks... They're basically a combined aggression training/bayonet practice tool. The strikes and blocks used are the same as for bayonet, which is a very simplified spear system.

This explaination hits it right on the head. We did not have time either in the Air Force, all our H2H training came on our own for our duties as cops. We were taught a crash course also and after that, your on your own as far as training. I don't know if I would say they are a Martial Arts in the manner that we look at Martial Arts as a name, but if they want to call what they do a Martial Art, who am I to argue with them.