And I did specify "cheaper ones." Get the mid to better grade ones, and you're fine. Actual mil-spec, no problem. But the cheapest? Tolerances just aren't quite there...True, but not all folding e-tools on the open market are mil spec.
special forces shovel
- Thread starter Flea
- Start date
lklawson
Grandmaster
Perhaps not deliberately. But the various militaries of the world, the U.S. included, have a general policy of "good enough" instead of "the best ever made by man!" and a long history of "oops!"
In the U.S. alone, as just a couple of examples, there is the mucking around with the original specs of the M16, issuing the .38 LC revolver in the Philippines, and issuing the frech Chauchat jam-o-matic to troops in WWI.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Xinglu
Black Belt
The M16A1 had major problems out of the gate that were addressed and fixed unfortunately it cost a lot of lives for that to happen. Fortunately those mistakes were not made with the M16A2 or the M16A4. Seems the Military learns from their mistakes as of late regarding weapon failure
Furthermore with the e-tool I have never seen, experienced or even heard of a folding mechanism failure (barring unforeseen circumstances for which it was never designed to be used). Since part of the e-tool's function is H2H combat it was designed to function well for that. In face I will go so far as to say the Fiskars e-tool is the finest ever made thus far. The Gerber is a good alternative as well.
Correct. Which is why if you want to use it for potential combat and not just camping trips, then you should buy Fiskars or Gerber, and my recommendation is the Fiskars. The screw thread locking mechanism is dang near bullet proof and can take a ridiculous amount of abuse, more than you'd ever give in H2H, ensuring there is no failure of the folding mechanism. I beat the hell out of mine and never once did it ever fail me, so when I ETS'd I got a new one, and it will work perfectly long after I'm dead!True, but not all folding e-tools on the open market are mil spec.
lklawson
Grandmaster
My point being, of course, that simply saying that "the military" designed and issued it "for combat" doesn't necessarily mean that it "isn't cheesy." It very well might be, at least until the design flaw gets noted and (eventually) fixed. Government Issue doesn't mean, "best in the word" it means that a committee or someone with lots of brass has vetted or pushed the design. Hopefully, as is usually the case, eventually, through actual use, if there are flaws they will be addressed.The M16A1 had major problems out of the gate that were addressed and fixed unfortunately it cost a lot of lives for that to happen. Fortunately those mistakes were not made with the M16A2 or the M16A4. Seems the Military learns from their mistakes as of late regarding weapon failure
Furthermore with the e-tool I have never seen, experienced or even heard of a folding mechanism failure (barring unforeseen circumstances for which it was never designed to be used). Since part of the e-tool's function is H2H combat it was designed to function well for that.!
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
For Systema practice it is far better in my opinion to keep your tools simple. For the shovel there are a number of applications Flea will be learning to do with a shovel that the simple cold steel type of spetz shovel will excel at, while other types can be usually be made to work but neither as efficiently nor as well in my experiences. There are reasons that the design has lasted so many decades and is a favorite of those that use these tools in serious environments and circumstances.
Regards
Brian King
Regards
Brian King
OP
OP
Timing is everything ... I had my index finger poised over The Button of the amazon.com shopping cart when I came back to this thread. They classify it as camping equipment, so I can get a great deal on it with autumn coming on!
My other remaining question as a hopeless noob is ... what do I sharpen it with?
It seems silly to pay a shipping fee twice after all when I can place a single order and be done with it.
My other remaining question as a hopeless noob is ... what do I sharpen it with?
It seems silly to pay a shipping fee twice after all when I can place a single order and be done with it.
Flea, most cold steel shovels come factory pre sharpened. They usually are not razor sharp (more of a working edge) but that is usually a good thing depending on what you are planning on using the shovel for. If you are going to train with it you either need it dulled or get a cover for it. Even the factory edged ones can easily cut and cut deeply. If you wish a sharper edge any kind of knife shop can sharpen them. I use a couple of places that clean and sharpen the edges of some of mine. They usually charge about five dollars. If you want to do it yourself a metal file will work but takes some time, a dermal tool works well as does any mechanical grinder. These are tools and should be treated as such. The more that you can handle it and get to know it the better in my opinion, this includes maintenance.
Regards
Brian King
Regards
Brian King
Xinglu
Black Belt
Ah, but I never said the military made them, Fiskars makes them :wink:. I think you might have misunderstood me, and for that I apologize I will attempt to clarify I said they were made for Combat. I was also very specific, I said the military doesn't issue cheesy e-tools. I said nothing of other equipment. Here is the post so you can re-read what I said, I feel that I was very specific, but if I was unclear I do apologize.
The rest we agree on.
Having used the e-tool that was issued to me extensively, I am of the opinion that it is the best in the world. Next to my weapon, it was one of my favorite pieces of equipment.
Darrin Cook
Yellow Belt
The latest US army combatives manual has e-tool techniques. You can find the manuals online via a search. (I got mine at selfdefenseresource.com)
Look in section FM 3-25.150, page 7-29.
Look in section FM 3-25.150, page 7-29.
Bruno@MT
Senior Master
Timing is everything ... I had my index finger poised over The Button of the amazon.com shopping cart when I came back to this thread. They classify it as camping equipment, so I can get a great deal on it with autumn coming on!
My other remaining question as a hopeless noob is ... what do I sharpen it with?
For sharpening, Start with a file, and work the edge at a reasonable angle. If you are new to sharpening, try to maintain the existing bevel angle. Keep filing until the edge is uniformly sharp along the entire edge. From there you can proceed either with a fine file, or a cheap sharpening stone such as you can buy in virtually every hardware store. Depending on the stone you use it with oil or water.
An alternative would be to glue some sandpaper for metal sanding to a straight piece of wood, and use that to polish the edge. That should make it sharp enough for all practical purposes. I did this with my garden shovel and in a quick test I could cut through a tree root that was slightly over 2 inches thick, with little effort. Making it any sharper than that is silly, since the steel is relatively soft and will not hold a razors edge. Plus if you are going to actually use it as a shovel, that razor edge would be gone quickly.
My grandpa served in the Philippines during WW2. They did a lot of e tool work with his unit (one of the last mounted cavalry units, eventually they got folded into rifle squads). They pretty much told them that to sharpen it, simply dig, it'll stay keep it's own edge and stay sharp enough to cut when you swing or jab with it. To use it, simply dig. Use two hands to dig into your opponent, or you can swing it like a club.
The local army suprlus shops around me have etools in them for under $15, of course, it looks like you can get the sf shovel for about 18 on knifecenter.
The local army suprlus shops around me have etools in them for under $15, of course, it looks like you can get the sf shovel for about 18 on knifecenter.
