Sparring to end the fight or to trade blows?

[Makalakumu]

How many of you spar to end the fight or to trade blows? I consider ending the fight as making sure the other guy cannot fight back anymore. I consider trading blows as scoring points and dominating.

IMHO, I think that most people just trade blows as they spar. This reflects the sportive aspect that karate has tried to establish. Ending the fight is much more aggressive and decisive and takes different rules in order to make it safe. If you spar this way, how do you do it?

 

[MBuzzy]

I really think that they are two different worlds.

Most schools that I know of (at least within TSD) spar to trade blows. Which, you are right, is completely based on the point sparring scenario. There is nothing to keep TSD schools from changing their set up towards the "ending the fight" method.

The point is, exactly as you said, that the two types require completely different rules and probably a large ground fighting portion. To effectively end the fight in this scenario, would require joint locks or taking the fight to the ground. Which is not what most TSD schools focus on. I know that your school has a very robust ground fighting portion, but at least the ones that I have trained at, ground fighting is almost non existant and joint locks are used only in a self defense situation. It is focused mainly on strikes.

The thing is....strikes can be used to end the fight, it just can't be done in sparring. How many people are going to say "Oh, you won, you almost hit me in the throat."

 

[fuyugoshi]

If you want to end the fight as soon as possible, why taking it to the ground? I don't get it. It is true that ground fighting may be necessary as circumstances change, but going to the ground on purpose.... why?

Some examples:

1.- One guy wants your money and put a knive in your stomach... Do you want to go to the ground with him AND his knive?

2.- Two guys grab your wife to rape her in a parking lot, while a third guy points a gun at you... Are you going to the ground?

3.- Some guy at a bar is holding a chair and waves it in all directions while chasing you around.... Why going to the ground?

I really think everybody needs some ground fighting experience, but that is totally different than "a large ground fighting portion". However, if the instructor only knows point sparring kumite, then the student is probably going to lose a fight as described in the three previous examples.

One questions:

1.- when you talk about "strikes" in karate, are you talking also about low kicks, strikes to both legs and arms joints, elbow strikes, knee strikes and headbutts?

I really think that they are two different worlds.

Most schools that I know of (at least within TSD) spar to trade blows. Which, you are right, is completely based on the point sparring scenario. There is nothing to keep TSD schools from changing their set up towards the "ending the fight" method.

The point is, exactly as you said, that the two types require completely different rules and probably a large ground fighting portion. To effectively end the fight in this scenario, would require joint locks or taking the fight to the ground. Which is not what most TSD schools focus on. I know that your school has a very robust ground fighting portion, but at least the ones that I have trained at, ground fighting is almost non existant and joint locks are used only in a self defense situation. It is focused mainly on strikes.

 

[MBuzzy]

If you want to end the fight as soon as possible, why taking it to the ground? I don't get it. It is true that ground fighting may be necessary as circumstances change, but going to the ground on purpose.... why?

Some examples:

1.- One guy wants your money and put a knive in your stomach... Do you want to go to the ground with him AND his knive?

2.- Two guys grab your wife to rape her in a parking lot, while a third guy points a gun at you... Are you going to the ground?

3.- Some guy at a bar is holding a chair and waves it in all directions while chasing you around.... Why going to the ground?

I really think everybody needs some ground fighting experience, but that is totally different than "a large ground fighting portion". However, if the instructor only knows point sparring kumite, then the student is probably going to lose a fight as described in the three previous examples.

One questions:

1.- when you talk about "strikes" in karate, are you talking also about low kicks, strikes to both legs and arms joints, elbow strikes, knee strikes and headbutts?

All very good points - but how do you spar for that?

I'm thinking along the lines of sparring to submission - which may not be what UpN was talking about. But in a real situation, like the ones that you refer to...get the weapon away, kick in the knees, kick in the groin, break their nose, whatever it takes. In some cases, give them your wallet.

But again....how do you spar for that. You can train it, you can tell students about it, but there is no way to spar for broken knees and broken noses.

 

[jks9199]

All very good points - but how do you spar for that?

I'm thinking along the lines of sparring to submission - which may not be what UpN was talking about. But in a real situation, like the ones that you refer to...get the weapon away, kick in the knees, kick in the groin, break their nose, whatever it takes. In some cases, give them your wallet.

But again....how do you spar for that. You can train it, you can tell students about it, but there is no way to spar for broken knees and broken noses.

In training for real world scenarios -- you have to put the student into a real world scenario. Want to see how to handle an attack? Have a training partner do it.

Sparring is a way to develop and sharpen your reflexes and your logistics. It is emphatically not the same as a real fight. Let me say that again. SPARRING IS NOT THE SAME AS A REAL FIGHT. A competition is not the same as a real fight on the street, either. There is an intensity, an intention, that is not present in even the most heated ring match. And free sparring (which is what you're describing; the two -- or more -- fighters move and trade techniques) lasts longer than any real fight should. If it lasts more than a few seconds, it's become a war.

One of the things you need to do is practice and spar in a way that DOES involve actually hitting and being hit. This is a great strength of judo randori; the movements are done at near-full power. It's harder to do with striking, unless you've got outstanding medical insurance and masochistic training partners... But you can use various sorts of armor, light gloves (be careful; gloves WILL change your punches, and you'll find that you can do somethings with gloves on that won't work without 'em)... and even just plain except at least a moderate hit from your partners.

Sgt. Rory Miller in Meditations On Violence (a great book; I highly recommend it!) says that every training scenario has to have a flaw from the perspective of the real deal -- or we'd end up hurting and killing our training partners. The flaws take a number of forms, like a punching bag doesn't hit back or move much, though you can hit it with full force, or doing solo kata/forms doesn't involve a partner... and sparring doesn't really go to "conclusion" for the aforementioned reasons.

 

[rick_tsdmdk]

....There is nothing to keep TSD schools from changing their set up towards the "ending the fight" method.

The point is, exactly as you said, that the two types require completely different rules and probably a large ground fighting portion. To effectively end the fight in this scenario, would require joint locks or taking the fight to the ground.......

Surely everyone knows tha the old saying that 90% of fights go to the ground is an urban legend, right?

 

[Sukerkin]

I've never understood how this 'take it to the ground' nonsense earned any credability. Is it just that in the televised age people have come to believe that what they see that is 'called' realistic fighting is actually accepted to be that?

I said it in jest in another (comedy) thread but anything that comes close enough to grab me is getting broken if I'm scared enough.

Wrestling is a part of even the armed arts but it's an adjunct to winning a fight, not the method.

We've touched on elsewhere that sparring is a misleading way of learning techniques. It has it's uses but kata is where you learn to perform a technique properly and with power.

Those who argue against kata often do not place appropriate value on the fact that what kata is teaching you is a repertoire of options and when properly visualised these options are stored in reflex memory. You don't do all of a kata in response to a situation - your mind fits the scene before the senses with the storehouse of techniques you have and applies the one that fits. You apply it with full force, just as you learned it. With sparring, if done to the exclusion of all else, what can happen is the previously sited bad outcomes where people have 'fought how they trained' and paid for it.

Just for the record, "take it to the ground" and "fight as you trained" are two stock phrases that are guaranteed to get my back up. Both attempt to paint a complex situation with too simple a brush.

 

[MBuzzy]

Surely everyone knows tha the old saying that 90% of fights go to the ground is an urban legend, right?

Well, I think that falls into the 80% of all statistics are made up rule. Some fights go to the ground....but it depends largely on the fight. IMO, most fights end after 2-3 hits...either the other guy gets knocked out or loses the will to fight or steps out. I really don't think that there are many of the type of fights that you see in movies. But that depends on the fight....The run at each other and hug pushing back and forth kind of fight does end up on the ground. Popular amongst kids and frat boys.

But within a martial arts school, the question is, what type of sparring is best and what type of sparring is practical/possible.

It may not be popular among the "do the most effective thing crowd," but I really do think that there is a good purpose to the standard TSD sparring scenario - not point sparring mind you - but timed rounds, trading blows. Especially if some contact is allowed. It teaches you to read an opponent, predict blows, defend a strike, think on your feet, get in shape, etc. Being that most *real* fights are over within a few seconds....it is the only practical way to "practice" fighting.

Now, the other end of the spectrum, in my opinion, would be to basically spar joint locks - which to me is really just dynamic self defense or hapkido sparring.

As I said...we are a striking art and there is simply no way to "practice" a two hit fight where you seriously injure or incapacitate the other person.

 

[MBuzzy]

My opinion of the whole "take it to the ground" thing is that those are the "not so serious" fights. Such as playground fights, frat boy fights, fights over a girl....the nonsense male aggression type of fighters where the two people just grab each other, try to get each other to the ground and wrestle. It is of limited use....but is essential to know something about.

In a real fight situation (i.e. one in which I fear for my life or safety or my family or friend's), I will do my best to incapacitate through injury, preferably before they get close enough to me for the ground to be an option. But this is also based on the belief that the other person is coming at me with the intent to kill, maim, or seriously injure.

In which case....Dojang sparring is of limited use, but it is of use for the purposes I mentioned above.

 

[jks9199]

I've never understood how this 'take it to the ground' nonsense earned any credability. Is it just that in the televised age people have come to believe that what they see that is 'called' realistic fighting is actually accepted to be that?

I think there are several factors driving that misbelief. First, you get cops talking and videos of cops fighting suspects... and all the fights seem to go to the ground. Of course, since our job is to contain, and arrest the suspect, and taking them to the ground removes quite a bit of their mobility and ability to resist... It's not at all uncommon for us to take someone resisting to the ground. In particular -- face down, with their hands behind their back. But that doesn't necessarily hold for EVERY fight.

Secondly, a lot of us probably think back to our last fight in high school or junior high. Lots of those DO end up on the ground after an exchange or two of punches. But they're not the same as a true fight; they're generally status displays. I like the term Rory Miller uses in Meditations On Violence (sorry, just finished it; I like the way the man thinks!): Monkey Dance. It's an almost primal display to prove or defend status... but, just like a clash between two rams over mates, the idea isn't really to hurt each other.

Finally, people watch the UFC and many other MMA events, and see how so many of them go to the ground for a submission. They figure there aren't many rules in the events, so they must be "real." But the fighters are (at least in theory) more or less evenly matched, and the rules actually do favor submission grappling to a certain degree... Oh, and THERE ARE RULES!!! In a real fight, odds are that the attacker will either be bigger, stronger, better armed, or more ready than you... Ogres don't fight fair and they don't play by the rules...

 

[14 Kempo]

Just to chime in on the 80%/90%/All "fights go to the ground" theory ...

Whatever the number or amount, I would say it is a lot closer to say 100% of fights start on the feet.

Couldn't resist. I agree that sparring has its place, but I must say, in my opinion, it isn't to find out if you can survive a street fight.

 

[JoeW]

I would just say continuous sparring with proper gear and a good amount of contact is all you can do. If you train in ground defense maybe throw in grappling in the spar almost MMA like.

Some of the fights are not that great but at least they acknowledge the ground.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Sparring to me means that people are training with one another for a certain goal. Now if the goal is to end a fight then when a blow or lock is achieved that would end the fight in a real situation the person on the receiving end acknowledges it, the two separate and start once again. if you are sparring just to train then you sparr continually and are not throwing techniques that would normally end a fight unless they are extremely controlled.