Sparring Judges

[DArnold]

Lol since karatekid started a forms judge, figured i'd start a sparring. Howcome they always seem to cheat? at states championships i ran/knocked the guy off the matts 6 times, on tape, and half way through the fight they stopped it, cause they weren't scoring me any pts. Then they erased my 4 pts, and gave him 2 more, so he won, what's with that lol. I've been to 5 tournaments, and 4 the sparring judges cheated.

I dont think we should score on points anyway, seems they cant do it right. I've seen fights where black belts get creamed, i mean creamed, but somehow they win, yet i've seen bbs cream someone else, yet they lose,*cream meaning knocking them down every few seconds, stopping the fight cause he was bleeding* Howcome they cheat so bad? I'ts not fair lol.

Laborn.

LOL

I teach umpires around the USA and everyone knows that if a student looses then it is the fault of the judges... clearly

Learning to judge is the same as learning to be a MA.

• Do they make mistakes - sure and if your a good fighter you learn how to take advantage of the judges and the rules. It just depends on how far you are willing to go.
• Do some have an integrity problem - yup
• Do most all students think that when they lost it was the judges - yup

The first thing I teach judges is that there are two loosers in every round.
1) The fighter with the least points and
2) The judges

I make my students go to as many tournaments as we can.
So they can win. NO WAY.
I prefer that they loose.
That way they learn.
The point of tournaments is to learn, not to storke their ego with some cheap $3 trophy or medal which means nothing.
Are they any smarter/better than when they walked in?

Also if they lost it's probably because they wern't smart enough to play the game...
then they probably deserved to loose anyway.

How good you are is only about 1/10th of a winner. I can tell you all kinds of ways to bend the rules in your favore.

(use techniques that were clearly visible to all judges,
learn to use the rules of the day to win! -adapt, improvise, overcome

it's not wether you think you are good - it's if you are good enough to play by the rules, not just the written ones but the ones the umpires actually go by.

Saying the judges cheated me always makes me think of people who whine and cry when they first learn that bluffing is a fair way to win in poker. They say "gee, that's not fair", get over it. With that attitude you will never improve.

As a hard stylest I always competed in patterns in open tournaments. It was a given that I would loose because I didn't do sumersaults, land in the splits and punch straight up. I could have whined that it was unfair. The judges always like softstyle patterns better, and lets face it, they usually are prettier, more graceful, and more artistic. But I competed every chance I got because it made me try harder, made me better, made me learn how to beat them at their own game.
Eventually you will get smart enough to do this.

Either your getting smarter or not because you sure arn't getting younger

And every person has three options to every problem in life:

1. Quite
2. Hope it goes away
3. Face it

 

[FearlessFreep]

I used to referre Little League baseball and it's the same thing. You do the best you can and sometimes you make mistakes and it's impossible to make everyone happy, especially the parents. So you do your best to be fair and pay as close attention as you can.

If you look back in the forum about a year or so you will find a thread I posted about my first tournament where I placed first in sparring and third in forms and I complained about the way the scoring had gone and several people basically told me to stop whining and I sorta realized I had misjudged the criteria that the judges had used and thus not known why I had lost, but I do now.

 

[Kacey]

The rules are certainly different from organization to organization - that's kind of a given. Going to tournaments outside of one's own organization is a learning experience - it's rare that someone going to another organization, even within the same style, will win a tournament. But the purpose of tournament competition isn't to win - it's to learn how to adapt your skills to new people. Sparring in class means that you will, realistically, spar the same people over and over, and fall into habits of using the techniques that work on the people you spar - you get to know who is good at what, who you can hit with what - I used to always hit a friend of mine with a ridge hand to the ribs - it ALWAYS worked the first time... so why try anything new?

When my students go to tournaments, I go over the rules, I make sure they know what the judges are looking for, I support them any way I can - and I always ask them afterwards what they learned. Winning is great, it's a lot of fun, it makes you feel great - but if you learn something, then it was worth attending. I have trophies and medals and certificates... but the ones that mean something to me are the ones that represent doing something new - the 4th place I got in sparring as a 4th gup, the first time I ever actually placed, and did it at an open tournament against people doing things I'd never seen before, that 4th place means more to me than a lot of the gold and silver medals that I got by beating people I beat in class, because I worked for it and I learned something new to get it.

Tournament competition is a game, and the name of the game is "earn points". You have to watch the other competitors and see what the judges are looking for, and then, as best you can, make sure they see it. Is judging unfair? Often - especially because it is subjective. That is a problem in all activities that have judging, from the Olympics to the State Fair to the school Science Fair - no matter how well defined the rules are, they are subjective, and no two people will see the same thing exactly the same way, or from the exact same angle.

 

[Miles]

A question to ask is, "Is the judge "blind", or does he have different expectations of what is expected?"

When I am center judging a ring, I will gather my corner judges and tell them how I am going to conduct scoring. The level of contact to score a point and such. (I do ATA point sparring). ......... This way no one is left wondering why they are not getting points and the parents understand what is going on.

Of course, there are always some people who should not be judging-period.

I think judging olympic sparring is easier than what you've described Shu2jack. If there isn't enough of a "whack" with the right weapon on the right target, there isn't a point scored.

Typically at smaller tournaments, the entire referee corps will have a meeting and ensure everyone know what rule modifications will be used (i.e. number and shorter rounds for kids, less contact (Junior Safety Rules), time between rounds, etc.) Then there is a demonstration after the bow-in as to what is acceptable but this is generally for the spectators not the athletes.

There are folks who should not be judging, but I require for 2nd dan that my students get certified by USAT as referees as this is something they can do to "give back."

Miles

 

[Shu2jack]

I think judging olympic sparring is easier than what you've described Shu2jack. If there isn't enough of a "whack" with the right weapon on the right target, there isn't a point scored.

Olympic sparring does seem a lot easier to judge and I would like to compete in that ruleset sometime. As a judge for the ATA, it gets annoying to listen to competitors or parents complain about the contact level from time to time. With the introduction of chest protectors, and I have been hearing that shin and forearm protectors are on the horizan, I am hoping that we are trying to set ourselves up to go full contact.

BTW Miles, I am sorry I haven't attended the last two Michigan workouts. I got busy with the holiday season in December and Janurary was short notice. If there is any way to let me know about 1 1/2 months or 1 month in advance I can make sure to set that day away to come on by.

 

[kwang gae]

The first thing I teach judges is that there are two loosers in every round.
1) The fighter with the least points and
2) The judges

That has to be one of the best responses to this topic (which comes up frequently in forums and in conversation) that I have ever encountered. Thank you for posting it, and I hope you don't mind if I use it too when I'm defending judges and the hard work they do!

 

[Miles]

BTW Miles, I am sorry I haven't attended the last two Michigan workouts. I got busy with the holiday season in December and Janurary was short notice. If there is any way to let me know about 1 1/2 months or 1 month in advance I can make sure to set that day away to come on by.

We had a good time yesterday in Kalamazoo-small but determined group. Next training is Sat 2/11 in Milan, no word yet on March. Referee training from 11-Noon, Athletes from Noon to 3pm. Any MI Taekwondoin interested in Olympic sparring training, please PM me for details.

Miles

 

[Shu2jack]

We had a good time yesterday in Kalamazoo-small but determined group. Next training is Sat 2/11 in Milan, no word yet on March. Referee training from 11-Noon, Athletes from Noon to 3pm. Any MI Taekwondoin interested in Olympic sparring training, please PM me for details.

Thank you! I think I will make that. This time though, I have a black stripe on my collar instead of a black/red stripe. Hopefully some of the students will not think I am some weirdo wearing a children's collar this time around.