Sparring for beginners, maintaining Centerline, etc....

[PiedmontChun]

I’ve been lurking here for a while as a newbie. I joined up because I have some questions that I will be posing to my Sifu but would like other opinions from students at various levels. Pardon me if this is long…

Some background: The light came on for me this year at 30 years of age that if I really wanted to learn a martial art like I had wanted to as a youth – I still could! I dug the principles of WC after doing some reading. I was bummed that the only school I could find around me that taught it, also taught a half dozen other systems / styles, and the cost was hard to swallow. It was also $200 / month + monthly testing fees to attend classes and actually earn rank. I don’t have time to attend 3 classes per week (trust me), and can not justify the expense. So I have spent the last 5 months as a member of a Distance Learning Program; it is Lueng Ting lineage I have come to learn. I have practiced the SLT form daily, footwork, solo drills such as Lead Arm and Rear Arm Defense, and wall bag punching. I submit videos to my Sifu and get feedback. I also went to a two-day training camp and was exposed to Lop Sau, Dan Chi Sau, a little bit of rolling arms, and had some very individual direction from my Sifu and Si-Hings. I don’t say all of this to start a discussion on distance programs vs. local kwoon, just to explain my background.

I have an opportunity with a local guy who teaches a general self-defense class at the local YMCA, and has opened the door to me when I wish to pop in. He is a black belt in Okinawan Karate and is branching out from his sport-oriented school to teach more self-defense on his own. Since he is open to sparring with me, I took him up on it this week since I have not had any exposure to actually striking and getting hit. We put on light gloves and kept it to hand strikes only. My thoughts from this:

1. Maintaining centerline (my center facing his center) was incredibly frustrating and the most difficult thing; trying to spar with someone determined to keep his shoulder pointed at me made me feel like I was playing his game, not mine. Often I would straightline punch with my right hand, then my my left only to find I was not reaching him due to him being turned from me. When I was more aggressive in stepping in, I made contact more, but it felt like I was chasing him in circles, as he moved back and then to the side almost like western boxing.
2. I did feel like I was generally always stepping forward and driving him back (or to side), versus him driving me backwards, which is good I suppose, but issue #1 above seemed to persist.
3. 75% of the time it seemed like the subtly of the movements from SLT were lost and I was sometimes simply knocking his hands out of the way somewhat haphazardly versus actually bridging or getting inside to his center. I tried to stay relaxed and maintain some sensitivity (what little I have barely any chi-sau experience) and a few instances I did feel instinct kick in with jut-sau or jum-sau type movement to deflect his force downward as I stepped in, and bong sau a couple times to allow me deflect upwards and step in.
4. His feedback to me was that my reaction time is weak and just indicative I have not sparred. This guy was fairly quick, and to me his strikes didn't feel telegraphed, and so I did get tagged.
5. His blocks were a clash of force, and even if he blocked my first and second punch, my third punch would often make contact. This was when I felt successful.

So my question: what do you do when someone is determined to fight you with their shoulder pointed toward you, and utilize twisting of the body to use their rear hand / arm as equally as their lead hand / arm? I am very interested to find out from other’s experience. I went over it in my head and it seems like it would have more efficient to Pak or Tan his lead arm while stepping to his blindside (I’m thinking of the Tan Sau / Low Palm / Stepping to outside movement in the dummy form’s first section) but isn’t that more of a last resort versus the ideal of trying to fight center facing center?

The other issues, slow reaction time, lack of sensitivity, being timid in stepping in, these are things I can work on. It’s silly to think at this early stage I would be skilled in these anyway I suppose.

 

[Kwan Sau]

Where in the world are you piedmont? USA? Europe?
Lots of instructors teach privately from their own home...you should inquire about that in this and other wing chun forums.

 

[PiedmontChun]

Where in the world are you piedmont? USA? Europe?
Lots of instructors teach privately from their own home...you should inquire about that in this and other wing chun forums.

I live in South Carolina.

 

[Punchy]

Stepping to outside movement in the dummy form’s first section) but isn’t that more of a last resort versus the ideal of trying to fight center facing center?

I also train in WT. You may have a bit of a misunderstanding. We don't necessarily fight center to center. Instead, think of attacking their center.
As you know, the centerline extends out from our centerpoint, becoming a 3 dimensional line to our opponent. We don't have to attack down his centerline, we simply need to use our own centerline to connect to his center. It is, in essence, our bridge to him.
We want to send our strikes into his center, that is, his vertical mid-line, from wherever we are in relation to him.
Think of his midline being the axle on a wagon wheel, and your centerline being one of the spokes that lead into the center.
You don't have to face directly in front of him; anywhere you are in relation to him is another spoke leading in to his center. Use your centerline to bridge that gap. Of course there are other methods of attack...fak sau, lifting punch, etc, but they still seek the center(core) of our opponent.
If your opponent is in a side facing position, he has provided his own flank to you. Control his lead hand and leg and attack into his center.

 

[mograph]

If your opponent is in a side facing position, he has provided his own flank to you. Control his lead hand and leg and attack into his center.

Ah! So even a side-facing opponent has a center you can access? It's just presented in a narrower package, but if you needed all that extra width presented by his facing front, you would still have some work to do on your skill ...?

 

[Punchy]

Ah! So even a side-facing opponent has a center you can access? It's just presented in a narrower package, but if you needed all that extra width presented by his facing front, you would still have some work to do on your skill ...?

The front does provide more target options, but the side approach has its fair share...temple, jaw, neck, armpit, ribs, kidneys, liver/spleen(depending on the side facing you), knee (also the knee of the leg farthest from you), shin/instep, ankle.
Attacking the flank is not a magic bullet by any means, but it does limit your opponent access to his rear hand if their front hand is controlled properly, and takes away kicking if the front leg is properly controlled with leg pressure.

 

[K-man]

These comments are from an Okinawan karate perspective but it might help you clarify your position.

I have an opportunity with a local guy who teaches a general self-defense class at the local YMCA, and has opened the door to me when I wish to pop in. He is a black belt in Okinawan Karate and is branching out from his sport-oriented school to teach more self-defense on his own. Since he is open to sparring with me, I took him up on it this week since I have not had any exposure to actually striking and getting hit. We put on light gloves and kept it to hand strikes only. My thoughts from this:

1. Maintaining centerline (my center facing his center) was incredibly frustrating and the most difficult thing; trying to spar with someone determined to keep his shoulder pointed at me made me feel like I was playing his game, not mine. Often I would straightline punch with my right hand, then my my left only to find I was not reaching him due to him being turned from me. When I was more aggressive in stepping in, I made contact more, but it felt like I was chasing him in circles, as he moved back and then to the side almost like western boxing.

Interesting that he was side on as Okinawan karate is very much centreline too. I would suggest this is a remnant from his sport base. Also, from your description it would seem that your sparring is a sport based type of sparring rather than 'in your face' fighting that is what WC and karate were designed for. The fact that you say you were aggressive 'stepping in' would indicate that he had you playing his game. In self defence you don't normally have to chase. So your advantage of centreline defence was negated by him requiring you to engage him.

2. I did feel like I was generally always stepping forward and driving him back (or to side), versus him driving me backwards, which is good I suppose, but issue #1 above seemed to persist.

3. 75% of the time it seemed like the subtly of the movements from SLT were lost and I was sometimes simply knocking his hands out of the way somewhat haphazardly versus actually bridging or getting inside to his center. I tried to stay relaxed and maintain some sensitivity (what little I have barely any chi-sau experience) and a few instances I did feel instinct kick in with jut-sau or jum-sau type movement to deflect his force downward as I stepped in, and bong sau a couple times to allow me deflect upwards and step in.

If I was going to spar with you I would be starting slow to allow you to get the feel for defending. The fact that you felt you were haphazardly knocking his hands means that you really didn't have time to think about what you were doing. With experience, that's fine, but in this instance you are not gaining much from the experience.

4. His feedback to me was that my reaction time is weak and just indicative I have not sparred. This guy was fairly quick, and to me his strikes didn't feel telegraphed, and so I did get tagged.

Not rocket science. What did he expect?

5. His blocks were a clash of force, and even if he blocked my first and second punch, my third punch would often make contact. This was when I felt successful.

The fact that you are talking about him blocking has my nose twitching and alarm bells ringing.

So my question: what do you do when someone is determined to fight you with their shoulder pointed toward you, and utilize twisting of the body to use their rear hand / arm as equally as their lead hand / arm? I am very interested to find out from other’s experience. I went over it in my head and it seems like it would have more efficient to Pak or Tan his lead arm while stepping to his blindside (I’m thinking of the Tan Sau / Low Palm / Stepping to outside movement in the dummy form’s first section) but isn’t that more of a last resort versus the ideal of trying to fight center facing center?

Unless you are going down the sport line I wouldn't be sparring anyone like that at this stage of your training.

The other issues, slow reaction time, lack of sensitivity, being timid in stepping in, these are things I can work on. It’s silly to think at this early stage I would be skilled in these anyway I suppose.

Can I respectfully suggest you stick with your WC at this time and forget the other unless you are going to change your training totally. The training you have described is not going to enhance your WC IMHO. It will just cause confusion.
:asian:

 

[J W]

75% of the time it seemed like the subtly of the movements from SLT were lost and I was sometimes simply knocking his hands out of the way somewhat haphazardly versus actually bridging or getting inside to his center. I tried to stay relaxed and maintain some sensitivity (what little I have barely any chi-sau experience) and a few instances I did feel instinct kick in with jut-sau or jum-sau type movement to deflect his force downward as I stepped in, and bong sau a couple times to allow me deflect upwards and step in.

This is a huge problem with distance learning WC in my opinion. You need to touch hands with a partner in order to develop sensitivity (among other attributes). Just playing the forms and doing solo drills isn't enough. Properly developing these attributes is tough enough even with experienced partners to help you, I can't imagine trying to do it on my own.

I agree with Kwan Sau, you should dig a bit deeper and see if you can find a WC sifu in your area. They don't all advertise. You might also consider switching arts. I agree with you about the principles of WC, that's what sparked my interest as well. There are other arts with similar principles, though, and if you were to find a quality instructor of another somewhat similar art in your area, that's a far superior way to train than long distance.

Not to discourage you from WC- but it'll be all uphill trying to learn by yourself. Distance learning may be a way to get your feet wet, but you'll only get so much from it.

 

[PiedmontChun]

I'm digesting what you are saying here, it's helpful so thank you. Can you elaborate on the below though?

The fact that you are talking about him blocking has my nose twitching and alarm bells ringing.


As far as confusing my training, just to clarify: I'm not learning from this black belt guy. He teaches a SD class, of which I'm not a student. I took his offer to come and throw some punches at each other.

As far as sparring this early on, I agree with you. Its clear it was not that productive for me the way we went about it. The speed / pace of it surpassed my ability to maintain form or control, that's essentially what I was pointing out already. What I would like to do is slow it down, and do some 1-2-3 defend and counter type sparring instead of being open-ended, if or when we do it again. Never the less, it seems like it should have some value. Having no prior MA background before WC, hitting and getting hit is a bit foreign to me, and something I want to get accustomed to so it is not a hurdle later.

As far as my centerline question, that makes sense. I will have to think of it as just a 'different' and narrower centerline presented to me by a shoulder forward stance, but a centerline nonetheless.

 

[PiedmontChun]

I knew going into a DLP I was limiting certain aspects of training and it would be slower. I can say though, that having worked on SLT and some solo drills at my own pace while getting some feedback via submitting video to my Sifu, it enabled me to show up to camp and tweak very minor things versus learn from scratch. And I do have a WC brother or two I can get with to train chi-sau and sensitivity when we can work it out. It is my goal to join a class when it presents itself. I just work and commute a combined 55 hours a week, take a part-time college course load at the moment, and have a family. I train WC in 15-25 minute bursts throughout the week in between the demands of life. Switching styles wouldn't fix that.

This is a huge problem with distance learning WC in my opinion. You need to touch hands with a partner in order to develop sensitivity (among other attributes). Just playing the forms and doing solo drills isn't enough. Properly developing these attributes is tough enough even with experienced partners to help you, I can't imagine trying to do it on my own.

I agree with Kwan Sau, you should dig a bit deeper and see if you can find a WC sifu in your area. They don't all advertise. You might also consider switching arts. I agree with you about the principles of WC, that's what sparked my interest as well. There are other arts with similar principles, though, and if you were to find a quality instructor of another somewhat similar art in your area, that's a far superior way to train than long distance.

Not to discourage you from WC- but it'll be all uphill trying to learn by yourself. Distance learning may be a way to get your feet wet, but you'll only get so much from it.

 

[K-man]

I'm digesting what you are saying here, it's helpful so thank you. Can you elaborate on the below though?

The fact that you are talking about him blocking has my nose twitching and alarm bells ringing.


As far as confusing my training, just to clarify: I'm not learning from this black belt guy. He teaches a SD class, of which I'm not a student. I took his offer to come and throw some punches at each other.

As far as sparring this early on, I agree with you. Its clear it was not that productive for me the way we went about it. The speed / pace of it surpassed my ability to maintain form or control, that's essentially what I was pointing out already. What I would like to do is slow it down, and do some 1-2-3 defend and counter type sparring instead of being open-ended, if or when we do it again. Never the less, it seems like it should have some value. Having no prior MA background before WC, hitting and getting hit is a bit foreign to me, and something I want to get accustomed to so it is not a hurdle later.

As far as my centerline question, that makes sense. I will have to think of it as just a 'different' and narrower centerline presented to me by a shoulder forward stance, but a centerline nonetheless.

OK. Now remember the context. I have had no formal training in Kung fu and so obviously no WC either. But I have trained with people trained in CMA. What I have recognised is the influence CMAs have had on the development of Okinawan karate. We have had numerous discussions on 'blocking' on MT. My understanding is at the extreme end. I don't believe there are any 'blocks' as such in karate. Certainly there are techniques that could be used as blocks but that is not the preferred option. To my mind a block is instinctive and reflex. It does not need to be trained as I never want to stop an attack. This principle is a major part of aikido but other martial arts too. Certainly there are deflections and redirection. These give you the advantage and unbalance your opponent.

So you wrote: "His blocks were a clash of force, and even if he blocked my first and second punch, my third punch would often make contact." I have a little drill where someone attacks with left, right, left combination. In practice the third strike never arrives. Depending on how I intend to receive the attack I will deflect the first strike (normally but not necessarily a jab) striking and entering simultaneously, or deflect the first two strikes before entering. The third strike never arrives. The beauty of the drill is that your partner has no idea of what is coming next. The instruction to him is "I want you to try and hit me with a combination of three strikes."

So my scenario exactly matches the situation that you described. The difference is the your partner tried to block your attack. Block, block, get hit. I won't go deeper into the psychology of that but I teach totally differently. I would be slipping in past your attack to strike and control.

What I have described is not what happens in sport sparring (although it could happen in MMA). Sport sparring is a little bit like boxing. You keep you distance and move in and out. Reality based stuff is to move in and engage and not disengage until your have demolished your opponent.

A combination of those ideas is what set off my alarms. I'm not suggesting he is not an accomplished and competent martial artist, just that what you have described is what you normally find ... sport based MA. I don't believe you need that sort of cross training at this stage of your journey.

Now you go on to say; "I'm not learning from this black belt guy. He teaches a SD class, of which I'm not a student. I took his offer to come and throw some punches at each other."

From what you have said, this is not SD. For example if I was going to spar you in a SD context I would be in your face, poking a finger in your chest, pushing you near the shoulder, maybe grabbing the shoulder prior to punching you with the other hand or grabbing with both hands to head butt. I would be entering your space, not waiting for you to invade mine. In this scenario your WC skills come to the fore. All those attacks have exposed his centre line. You are in your element and he is at the disadvantage. Even if I enter with a combination of punches or just a wild swing you have your strong base to attack from.

Again, this scenario doesn't need gloves or any other form of protection as we are starting off slow and steady. That doesn't mean we can't give the body a bit of touch up to condition and give a bit of realism, but this is meant to be a learning process for you, not a demonstration of your instructor's ability. To be honest, I don't see any value in what he is offering at all. I would, as has been suggested, be looking around for a good WC instructor somewhere near you to tidy up what you are learning on line.
:asian:

 

[PiedmontChun]

Thanks for elaborating! I get your meaning now.

OK. Now remember the context. I have had no formal training in Kung fu and so obviously no WC either. But I have trained with people trained in CMA. What I have recognised is the influence CMAs have had on the development of Okinawan karate. We have had numerous discussions on 'blocking' on MT. My understanding is at the extreme end. I don't believe there are any 'blocks' as such in karate. Certainly there are techniques that could be used as blocks but that is not the preferred option. To my mind a block is instinctive and reflex. It does not need to be trained as I never want to stop an attack. This principle is a major part of aikido but other martial arts too. Certainly there are deflections and redirection. These give you the advantage and unbalance your opponent.

So you wrote: "His blocks were a clash of force, and even if he blocked my first and second punch, my third punch would often make contact." I have a little drill where someone attacks with left, right, left combination. In practice the third strike never arrives. Depending on how I intend to receive the attack I will deflect the first strike (normally but not necessarily a jab) striking and entering simultaneously, or deflect the first two strikes before entering. The third strike never arrives. The beauty of the drill is that your partner has no idea of what is coming next. The instruction to him is "I want you to try and hit me with a combination of three strikes."

So my scenario exactly matches the situation that you described. The difference is the your partner tried to block your attack. Block, block, get hit. I won't go deeper into the psychology of that but I teach totally differently. I would be slipping in past your attack to strike and control.

What I have described is not what happens in sport sparring (although it could happen in MMA). Sport sparring is a little bit like boxing. You keep you distance and move in and out. Reality based stuff is to move in and engage and not disengage until your have demolished your opponent.

A combination of those ideas is what set off my alarms. I'm not suggesting he is not an accomplished and competent martial artist, just that what you have described is what you normally find ... sport based MA. I don't believe you need that sort of cross training at this stage of your journey.

Now you go on to say; "I'm not learning from this black belt guy. He teaches a SD class, of which I'm not a student. I took his offer to come and throw some punches at each other."

From what you have said, this is not SD. For example if I was going to spar you in a SD context I would be in your face, poking a finger in your chest, pushing you near the shoulder, maybe grabbing the shoulder prior to punching you with the other hand or grabbing with both hands to head butt. I would be entering your space, not waiting for you to invade mine. In this scenario your WC skills come to the fore. All those attacks have exposed his centre line. You are in your element and he is at the disadvantage. Even if I enter with a combination of punches or just a wild swing you have your strong base to attack from.

Again, this scenario doesn't need gloves or any other form of protection as we are starting off slow and steady. That doesn't mean we can't give the body a bit of touch up to condition and give a bit of realism, but this is meant to be a learning process for you, not a demonstration of your instructor's ability. To be honest, I don't see any value in what he is offering at all. I would, as has been suggested, be looking around for a good WC instructor somewhere near you to tidy up what you are learning on line.
:asian:

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

take away kicking if the front leg is properly controlled with leg pressure.

This is a very important point. Many WC guys only pay attention on "arm bridge" and not pay enough attention on "leg bridge". When you use your leading leg to jam your opponent's leading leg, not only he can't kick you with his leading leg, he can't kick you with his back leg either.

If we compare the WC stance to the cross stance (with right leg forward but left hand forward), I prefer the cross stance. It has the PRO of the WC stance (both hands have the same reach) but don't have the CON of it (expose the belly and expose to double legs).

 

[geezer]

Piedmont: Distance learning alone won't give you what you need. If you are doing distance learning in the Leung Ting lineage, that might be Phil Bradley's "AWCA". Although I knew Phil many years ago -- he was a si-juk (kung few nephew) of mine and a nice guy -- I have no experience with his on-line program. I can say that no matter how good any online program is, it will be at best useful only as a supplement to having a real instructor and training partners.

If you are really serious about learning WC, you are going to have to locate quality instruction even if it means traveling several hundred miles to get "hands-on" training. Now if you can drum up a training partner in your area, it would be possible to train like this, traveling to get private tutoring at intervals of say once a month or so. Currently, I travel over a thousand miles a couple times a year to train, or alternatively, I organize seminars and fly-in my instructor to teach our group here.

Now this is not as impossible as it seems. 1. Locate the nearest group that is associated with a quality instructor or organization. 2. Contact them and find out what it would take to get a group going in your area. You might be able to start a college club etc. and become the organizer/group-leader in your area. Basically, you end up recruiting and organizing seminars in return for instruction at a free or reduced rate. This is what has made it possible for me to continue training with a limited income and family responsibilities as well.

I don't know what part of South Carolina you live in, but I took about 2 seconds on Google to see that City Wing Tsun has a branch down near Augusta on the Georgia border. I have no association with that organization, but I know that the head instructor, Alex Richter is a former Leung Ting lineage instructor trained in the US and Germany, and from his videos, I'd rate him quite highly as a representative of that lineage. Not as highly as my instructors (Leung Ting 1980's, Emin Boztepe early 90's, Jeff Webb 2007--present) but I'd still say he's pretty darn good. Also, I happen to know that the group I belong to, the NVTO (National Ving Tsun Organization) coming originally from the same lineage, has a group on the eastern border of Tennessee. There may be more people out there who aren't advertising. Couldn't hurt to contact these and other organizations. They might be able to connect you to people that are "under the radar". Good luck in your search.

 

[JPinAZ]

I do give you a lot of props for doing what you have done up to this point, and your willingness to go spar with another guy is good. But Geezer and the others are correct - you can not realistically learn or use WC without regular training partners. While forms and solo drills do play an important role, without regular live hands-on interaction you have no spacial awareness to an opponent, so you can't really develop the skills for understanding spacial awareness & facing, timing, leverage, or how to react to an opponent's energy when contact is made.

Hopefully you can find a local teacher, or at the least some regular training partners and good luck in your journey!

 

[PiedmontChun]

I do give you a lot of props for doing what you have done up to this point, and your willingness to go spar with another guy is good. But Geezer and the others are correct - you can not realistically learn or use WC without regular training partners. While forms and solo drills do play an important role, without regular live hands-on interaction you have no spacial awareness to an opponent, so you can't really develop the skills for understanding spacial awareness & facing, timing, leverage, or how to react to an opponent's energy when contact is made.

Hopefully you can find a local teacher, or at the least some regular training partners and good luck in your journey!

Thanks JPinAZ (and everyone). I did not intend start a thread on distance learning / solo training / etc but everyone has been fairly constructive and encouraging. Well to update, I still am training solo, but no more sparring. I haven't even found the time for that.
I did find a possible (very small) school that is LT lineage in my metro area. It would be a financial and time commitment that I can not do year round but am considering enrolling for chunks of time if it looks promising. A TKD school owner also gave me a lead on a local guy with a lot of WC experience that I need to track down and speak to see what can come from that. Realistically though, between a recent promotion, family, and some ongoing higher education, until summer comes and frees up my time it will be just me and my wooden dummy training drills solo in my spare time. I also don't believe I would leave my distance learning WC community anytime soon at all as the Sifu and others are great, because I have enjoyed training camp enough to attend in the future, and for continuity's sake.

 

[geezer]

I did find a possible (very small) school that is LT lineage in my metro area.

If you find out more about this group, let us know. Or PM me if you'd like. Like some others on this forum, I'm originally from the LT lineage (although with an independent group now). BTW "small" can be a good thing.