Spanish knife fighting

[XOPC]

Hi All!

I wonder if there are any specialists of Spanish knife fighting art. I am from Ukraine, and the art of knife fighting is becoming more and more popular here.

However knife fighting is mostly represented by a system developed here by karate trainers called tanto-koi, or by a limited amount of moves or drills within uniarmed combat systems, like Kadochnikov Russian Style System.

I myself studied Kadochnikov system for 5 years, and I can say, they really give some very simple and very practical skills relating to working with the knife, but they are all good for a very short-time situation, and in case if the fight keeps longer, they will not work.

From what I heard about the Spanish knife fighting, it is quite a complex knife fighting system suggesting solutions for any situation.

I am not sure, whether there are any actual navaja schools in Spain, but as I was told this art is still taught as something commonly known within families in Spain and Mexico, where professional knife fights were held up to 1930's.

Will also appreciate any links to schools or instructors' websites.

 

[Carol]

It's very difficult to say. I've participated on a Spanish-language forums dedicated to knife enthusiasts, and most of the tales surrounding Navaja fighting are more myth than reality. Unfortunately there are more than a few people out there that are trying to profit off the some of the tales of Navaja fighting....most have videos and books for sale that are full of unprovable points. Most Spaniards that I've talked to that have were seriously in to bladed martial arts tended to prefer the Filipino arts for knife fighting and other edged weapon combat skills. Keep in mind the Philippines were a Spanish colony for over 300 years.

The Navaja was a very unique folding blade. It was cumbersome to work with and made a very distinct noise when it was open...perhaps so the other other guy would know what was coming. The traditional Navaja wasn't used as a defensive weapon, it was a dueler's weapon.

That stands in sharp contrast to the modern knife-fighting systems focus on training with blades that are easy...and quiet...to deploy and sheath. Many are anodized to keep light from reflecting off the blade's surface.

Now, the Spanish word "navaja" simply means a folding blade or pocket knife. Nothing more.

Andalusian Spain maintains their wonderfully rich traditions of blade-making. The cutlery shops in the area are like nothing else in the world. The area has some wonderful people with a very rich history.

Please be careful as you explore this part of martial history. You will find some amazing artisanship, but within there are also people that make up stories for the chance at some quick cash. Please be extra extra careful if you do not speak Spanish.

Good luck and stay safe :asian:

 

[harold]

Hi All!

I wonder if there are any specialists of Spanish knife fighting art. I am from Ukraine, and the art of knife fighting is becoming more and more popular here.

However knife fighting is mostly represented by a system developed here by karate trainers called tanto-koi, or by a limited amount of moves or drills within uniarmed combat systems, like Kadochnikov Russian Style System.

I myself studied Kadochnikov system for 5 years, and I can say, they really give some very simple and very practical skills relating to working with the knife, but they are all good for a very short-time situation, and in case if the fight keeps longer, they will not work.

From what I heard about the Spanish knife fighting, it is quite a complex knife fighting system suggesting solutions for any situation.

I am not sure, whether there are any actual navaja schools in Spain, but as I was told this art is still taught as something commonly known within families in Spain and Mexico, where professional knife fights were held up to 1930's.

Will also appreciate any links to schools or instructors' websites.

I personally have never heard of Navaja.My training in edged weapons has been Filipino which I enjoyed a lot.I have also had the opportunity to see some of Mike Kanarek's Haganah knife work and I enjoyed it also.

 

[jks9199]

You might also want to ask in the Western Martial Arts forum here. I know we have some very knowledgable people who train in Western martial arts. I know that there is at least one very complex Spanish dueling style based on the circle and geometry; they may be able to shed some more light.

 

[XOPC]

Thanks everyone for replying.

Carol, I also had this feeling, when I was discussing this at our Russian forums, so I decided to chek here, whether I could find anyone, who can tell me something realistic about this style.

jks9199, I think this is what I thought of. I have reposted this message in the Western MA section, I hope someone practicing this style will reply.

Thanks again

 

[arnisador]

The Basque knife is the 'saca tripa'.

 

[Bodhisattva]

Hi All!
I am not sure, whether there are any actual navaja schools in Spain, but as I was told this art is still taught as something commonly known within families in Spain and Mexico, where professional knife fights were held up to 1930's.

Will also appreciate any links to schools or instructors' websites.

Jeez. Pro Knife Fights must be really depressing to watch.

 

[thardey]

You might also want to ask in the Western Martial Arts forum here. I know we have some very knowledgable people who train in Western martial arts. I know that there is at least one very complex Spanish dueling style based on the circle and geometry; they may be able to shed some more light.

You may be referring to the Spanish Rapier System, called "La Destreza", which is based on Geometry and Mathematics. From the limited experience I've had with Filipino Knife Fighting, I've seen a lot of cross-over from footwork to guards.

Unfortunately, the offshoot that I studied, by a guy named Thibault, doesn't include knife or dagger work.

Over the next six months or so, however, I am going to be studying La Destreza extensively, and it should include dagger dueling. I'll stay in touch on this board.

In the meantime, see if you can track down Marozzo's knife fighting drills. I know there are a couple of people over at www.swordforum.com who are familiar with him. He's primarily Italian, but the he used some of the same ideas that were popular with the Spanish. Here's some of his dueling drills. They should keep you busy for a while.

 

[XOPC]

Thanks a lot thardey, you information is really interesting, however the link to the dueling drills does not work. :-(

 

[thardey]

Here ya go.

PM me if you have specific questions on the names of the stances.


http://www.hemac.org/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=21

Achille Marozzo's dagger
by Carlo Parisi, HEMAC Scholar



From 'Opera Nova', Caps 52-57.

About the fight of the single dagger cap 52

Now, I’ll teach you how to fight with the dagger, it will be brief and useful teaching, expecially for someone who has to draw blades, I’ll tell you how the stronger man can take the grip, so pay attention.

The first part of the single dagger cap 53

First of all, you’ll get in coda longa e stretta (a guard similar to tierce) in an elegant fashion, never taking your eyes off the opponent’s weapon, thrust at the outside of his right hand, were the glove doesn’t cover it, if he doesn’t have a glove, so much worse for him, and give him an half mandritto in the hand too. Your dagger will be in porta di ferro alta (unicorn), when your opponent throws at your head, so, take your right foot to his outside and meet his blow with your true edge in guardia d’intrare (seconde), at the same time of the parry, move your left foot to his outside and take hold of his right arm to the outside with your left hand, so you can give him a roverso (a left to right cut) to the head or a thrust to the chest, take care that your opponent doesn’t grasp your weapon arm with his left hand. When you’ve done, retreat 4 or 5 paces in the same guard (coda longa e stretta).

The second part of the single dagger cap 54

Get in coda longa e stretta, if your opponent throws a thrust to your dagger hand, lift it so that his thrust goes under it, and at the same time give him a roverso traversato to the arm (cut left to right), if he throws mandritto (right to left) at your head, parry his blow with your true edge and give him a fendente (medium) to the head, make an half turn of the hand and go back in coda longa e stretta (medium to tierce).

The third part about the patient cap 55

Get in coda longa e stretta, in the usual fashion, so that the left foot follows the right, never taking your eyes off his strong hand, so that, if he throws a mandritto or a manrovescio to your leg, you’ll slip the leg a bit so that his cut misses it and then you’ll bring your right foot forward and give him a roverso to the head. This done, you’ll get 4 or 5 steps back and get in coda longa e stretta in as elegant fashion as you can, always looking at the above mentioned hand.

The fourth part: you’ll be the patient of mandritto cap 56

Having remained in coda lunga e stretta, if your opponent throws a mandritto to you, move your left foot to his right and catch his blow with your true edge in so doing, grasp the inside of his arm with your left hand and jerk him to his outside, so that you can give him athrust in the chest, I strongly doubt he’ll manage not to lose his poniard or turn to give his back to you, given the pull you’ll give him (he could get out of the hold, if he managed to spin to his left). Take care to bring your left hand into play from under your poniard. When you release the grip on your opponent get 4 or 5 steps back and get in coda longa e stretta in an elegant fashion.

The fifth and last part of the single dagger, you’ll be the patient against the thrust cap 57

Being you in coda longa e stretta, if your opponent tries to give you a thrust from down up, in one time give him an half roverso to the weapon arm and a roverso thrust to the chest (a tierce), without moving the feet, this done, go 4 or 5 steps back and get the guard I taught you.



Copyright of Carlo Parisi & HEMAC 2004.

 

[XOPC]

Uh-huh, this will make me somewhat busy. Thanks!

 

[Kuk Sa Nim]

Greeting everyone,
I just noticed this post and think it is great. I rarely see knowledgeable discussions on Spanish knife training. And I agree that it is very important and helpful if you understand the Spanish language. From my personal experience, I have been quite an enthusiast of knives and knife training since I can remember. I can not speak much for "Spanish knife training" as such, but I did get the opportunity to train in several "Mexican knife fighting methods" during various years when I lived there.

FWIW, I garnered some very important methods and strategies rather than any type of "style". I was exposed to two main types of training. They were "Cuchillo callejero" (Street knife fighting), and "Machete del Campo" (Country Machete fighting). I went to school in a large urban city (Leon, Gto.) and spent much to much time working on my fathers cattle ranches. This is were I learned these methods. I can say in all honesty, they were ALL very powerful and deadly. I was fortunate to have this exposure and have subsequently incorporated this knowledge into the knife fighting system of our martial art which has mostly Korean arts as a foundation (Modern Farang Mu Sul).

If this helps, I'll try to explain a couple of the things that left the greatest impression on me. For knife, they were:

"La Destripada" (lit. the disembowelment)
This involves several offensive and defensive tactics for simultaneously attacking the opponents knife hand or wrist, checking the hand and a twisting uppercut. There were similar techniques were the first move involved simultaneously checking the opponent knife hand and targeting the forehead or eyebrows and a twisting uppercut. These are VERY nasty and effective fighting techniques. I teach them to all my students so that they never fall prey to them. These moves are now contained in the #1 and #2 cuts from our knife form and work interchangeably.

"Attaque Jaque Mate" (lit. the checkmate) also know as "El Matador" (the "matador" as in bullfighter).
This is one of my "go to" techniques that I teach my people after they have experienced it by sparring with me. It is extremely stealthy and virtually impossible to see or stop.

Lastly for machete:
"Los Cinco Puntos" (lit. the 5 points)
This was most likely passed down from the times of the Mexican revolution and other wars where the machete was used almost as much as the Mauser rifle and much later the M1 garand. The machete always saw action and was a force to contend with. But I digress, los cinco puntos are simply a five angle attack and defense that is common in many arts, but the main difference I saw was the power and accuracy of these blitz type of movements. I mean I saw some of these old guys chop down mesquite wood in a couple swings, and could hit the exact same spot whenever they choose. Trust me, this is very dense wood, and this is not an easy task. They did this all day long clearing my dad's land. Very impressive and chilling at the same time.

OK, well I hope this helps this conversation, with a bit from the Mexican knife experience.

With brotherhood,
Kuk Sa Nim

 

[arnisador]

Fascinating! I'd love to see some of this and compare it to FMA methods for the bolo (machete)!

 

[Jeff Richardson]

Correction...


Please note that there is no connection that we know of between the Spanish systems and the Italian system taught by Morozzo.

The premiere instructor I know of teaching Navajha is James Loriega. Out of the New York area somewhere. He has at least one book out.

The Destreza systems teach the sword.... and were not written for short knife systems.