Some interesting points from Klaus Brand

[Juany118]

I think is was an exaggeration for marketing purposes. However, as noted before Dan T and I agree that these points were fairly accurate for far too many WIng Chun people:

-guard hands too low
-too much weight on back leg
-too many punches per second
-punching always from the centre
-not using power (or just being weak in general)

I highlighted the three that I found off. (already agreed that while the first 2 aren't issues in TWC, they are in others). I have seen the highlighted ones as things that often happen in the beginning but are "corrected" later if you have a good Sifu. Now there are bad Sifu's that do the above no doubt, just trying to point out I don't think it's quite as universal as the criticism linked in the OP is universal.

From my experience, and those of acquaintances, some WC instructors teach the first two almost exclusively in order to ingrain the principles early on, not to train for actual fighting. The last I highlighted, when it happens, can be a consequence of the first. Some don't teach power, at first, because they are afraid (and I have actually seen it happen) that someone may focus too much on power and lose the ideas of relaxation and speed of a single punch, so they miss out on training some basic principles.

Let me explain in a bit more detail what I mean. I was taught chain punching and punching from the center the following reasons.
1. to punch in a manner that maintains a degree of relaxation at certain points (don't tense up in the shoulder so it doesn't rise, telegraphing the punch. Also to relax once your force is transferred so you can reposition that limb as needed more rapidly.)
2. to ensure you simply execute a straight punch properly. Maybe it's just my instructor but we will actually use an adjustable reflex bag like this for some chain punching drills because the bag shows you if your straight punch is striking as it should. Not simply the orientation of the arm but also the wrist/fist. It's adjustability lets you refine where it flexes and how much to really get the technique down. Not traditional training with this device but it works in my experience.

While the specific training methods may be different this is my experience in terms of purpose and it's shared by others who train in schools of different lineages in my area. Yes the "brand new" student may be taught these two things before using power and that punching along the centerline isn't your only option, for the reason I noted above (above others). That doesn't mean that they are never taught the use of power. Some teachers may indeed make the student wait a bit, but the time does come with many teachers.

That is why I proposed he may be also trying to take advantage of the "new" student to WC who doesn't quite understand the real purpose. The idea of crawl>walk>run that many TMA's tend to use in training isn't necessarily something all students get these days. I was just spitballing earlier that some of the criticisms we see here might be designed for the new and impatient student of WC. Just spitballing though and obviously my experience is limited to my own training and that of those I am personally acquainted with. /shrug

 

[wckf92]

Trying to follow this thread...
Why do some here think that "guard hands too low" is an issue?
Perhaps the WC'er is simply baiting his opponent(?)

 

[KPM]

Trying to follow this thread...
Why do some here think that "guard hands too low" is an issue?
Perhaps the WC'er is simply baiting his opponent(?)

Well, there is a reason that boxers in training are quite frequently reminded to "keep your hands up!" Holding guard hands too low is essentially the same as having no guard at all in this age where most fighters are "head hunters." Baiting is one thing, but we are talking about a default or standard guard position.

 

[Juany118]

Trying to follow this thread...
Why do some here think that "guard hands too low" is an issue?
Perhaps the WC'er is simply baiting his opponent(?)

It's fine to bait an opponent at the "right moment" however in a real fight you can't have your "default" stance as a bait stance. Not every opponent is easy to bait or "set up". Some can't be at all.

It's actually why I shake my head in some debates. I have said that when you fight you have to understand that your opponent is his/her own person, that they will make their own decisions so you have to be able to not just fight your own game (baiting, setting them up etc) but flow with that opponent and their game. Let them show you when and where to strike when you can't, for whatever reason, impose your will on them. Some think WC can somehow miraculously do something no other martial art can do, win solely by baiting and imposing your will upon the opponent. This simply isn't possible as a universal concept in a real fight. Thus if your primary "ready stance" is based on this concept, you are going to have issues when your opponent has enough skill, talent and/or experience to not be baited.

 

[Juany118]

Well, there is a reason that boxers in training are quite frequently reminded to "keep your hands up!" Holding guard hands too low is essentially the same as having no guard at all in this age where most fighters are "head hunters." Baiting is one thing, but we are talking about a default or standard guard position.

Exactly. You can actually see this in practice in MMA, I like to use the Rousey fights as an example. She has an awesome ground game and used to dominate with it. She would attempt to "bait" and impose her will on her opponent's to get to that ground game. The two times she got destroyed by better strikers you see the strikers 1. Not taking the bait and 2. Flowing with her.

She tries to bait them and move in for a take down? They flowed with her, maintaining their striking range while staying outside her takedown range, all along raining blows where she left herself open to them because she had opened her guard as she moved for the takedown she couldn't get. They closed and let her tell them where to hit.

The same things happens on the street and it doesn't even take a trained fighter. An experienced brawler has learned the concepts the "hard way."

 

[anerlich]

If that arm is holding a weapon, I definitely want to keep contact with / a hold of it.

 

[Juany118]

If that arm is holding a weapon, I definitely want to keep contact with / a hold of it.

Yes indeed, there are times when both are unarmed that this is important as well. The main point about the idea of flow I mentioned is that you can't try to "force" it. If, for whatever reason, you can't connect on your terms and you try to force it to happen anyway, you'll get clocked in a fist fight, stabbed in a knife fight etc. Sometimes we can't even get control of that limb with the knife when we want to so you need to use distance and timing to avoid it until you can get that blade on your terms.

Now "your terms" doesn't mean unscathed. You can't be afraid of getting "just cut" or taking a punch, but like in the Rousey fights you can't just keep hanging your head against the wall.

 

[Mrman]

The 8 "mistakes" in a lot of people's Wing Chun!

The 8 Most Dangerous Mistakes of "Wing Chun" Systems | Sifu Klaus Brand • International Academy of WingChun •

 

[Mrman]

Well you won't hear much of klaus brand now as I heard he retired in Thailand,. All his German instructors left him, so, not much left to do. Now trying at writing , because worn himself out talking and practicing karate chun. And the girls of course there are the bonus for those who run to go there.

 

[geezer]

Well you won't hear much of klaus brand now as I heard he retired in Thailand,. All his German instructors left him, so, not much left to do. Now trying at writing , because worn himself out talking and practicing karate chun. And the girls of course there are the bonus for those who run to go there.

I couldn't access the link in your previous post as the post by KPM that you responded to was over 7 years old! And, I wondered what had become of Klaus Brand and his hard-style take on Wing Chun.

It always seemed strange, especially as he came out of the WT branch which is very "soft" in the sense of being flexible and yielding. Even tough fighters from WT, like Emin taught Leung Ting's softer, "springy energy".

So, Mrman, did you spend time in the WT or WC system?

 

[Mrman]

I was with the British organisation in the early days of iaw. It started differently more I think like leung ting. Then fairly quickly it got harder. Brand always moaning about GM kernspecht, seminars were just doing basics of class stuff. Nothing new to interest the imagination. I understand now that the organisation iaw is defunct. The German instructors who were very good and visited UK have all left him. He became arrogant, joked about the disabled. Even I was told later, said women cannot do wing chun as they are not strong enough. So he let them do it just for fun. So, I'm glad I left to be away from the Egoist. So I continue in now Spain.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

-guard hands too low
-too much weight on back leg
-too many punches per second
-punching always from the centre
-not using power (or just being weak in general)

- footwork training.

WC footwork training is one of my concerns. I have never seen any WC footwork training like this. Training like this should be added into the WC system.

 

[geezer]

I So I continue in now Spain.

Can you tell us about what you are doing now ...in Spain? That's a long way from Arizona ...even if parts of it look very similar!

Anyway, are you still training any Wing Chun/Wing Tsun? Tell us about it!

 

[APL76]

- footwork training.

WC footwork training is one of my concerns. I have never seen any WC footwork training like this. Training like this should be added into the WC system.

We do something very similar, in the sense of moving along, changing angles and sides with the stance and incorporating arm techniques. We don't step like that, but the movement is similar. At a guess I'd say the intent behind the training is similar too.

 

[geezer]

We do something very similar, in the sense of moving along, changing angles and sides with the stance and incorporating arm techniques. We don't step like that, but the movement is similar. At a guess I'd say the intent behind the training is similar too.

We do too.

 

[APL76]

We do too.

Yep. Old KFW telling us all to do something plenty of us have been doing for years, as usual.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yep. Old KFW telling us all to do something plenty of us have been doing for years, as usual.

Not telling but suggesting. The person who taught me the WC system did not emphasize the footwork training.

Old saying said, "You may not find any opening to attack. As long as you keep moving, soon or later you will find opening to attack."

Old saying also said, "After a teacher has taught his students the footwork, those students will have chance to defeat their teacher after that."

So, footwork training can make big difference.

 

[APL76]

Not telling but suggesting. The person who taught me the WC system did not emphasize the footwork training.

Old saying said, "You may not find any opening to attack. As long as you keep moving, soon or later you will find opening to attack."

Old saying also said, "After a teacher has taught his students the footwork, those students will have chance to defeat their teacher after that."

So, footwork training can make big difference.

That's fair enough, and I don't mean to sound like a di*&k, after all, as far as I have seen footwork is typically not really an emphasised feature of a lot of Wing Chun, so it's understandable that you might not have seen that kind of training for Wing Chun.

That said though, it is out there, though we'd do it with the sliding step combined with the circling leg from Bui Ji. We do also have more of a stepping way of doing footwork too, mind you, which can be done similar to this too.

 

[geezer]

We'd do it with the sliding step combined with the circling leg ...

Exactly. I've seen variations from a couple of different WC branches, but in all cases you end up doing a fast zig-zag step which we combined with punching. You cover ground quickly, getting a good angle on your opponent and and the momentum adds power to your punching.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

we'd do it with the sliding step ...

When you do the sliding step - front foot step in, back foot slide in, do you coordinate your punch with your leading foot landing, or with your back foot sliding?