Snow in june...in Hawaii...

[elder999]

Capitalism and pollution clean-ups happen because, as above, wealthy people like clean and safe places to live, so the politicians get things cleaned up to get the cash and the votes. The miracle of capitalism at work.

Well, bill, once again, no.

Our country is a perfect example. Pollution clean-ups happened because shortly after you were born, that could-have-been great Republican signed the Clearn Air Act, the Clean Rivers and Waters Act, and created the EPA. Regulations are what led to pollution clean ups, clean ups that are ongoing in some places. Regulations that need to be enforced or modified in others. The Hudson River, which I pretty much grew up on, was nearly a chemical laden, sewage filled cesspool at the time, and by the time I reached young adulthood, it was cleaner than it had been in 100 years, because regulations made the corporations that dirtied it clean it up.

What planet is it that you're from, again? :lfao:

WHen people get tired of pollution
they will get it cleaned up
just like the united states did
when we first industrialized (!!????)
and decided pollution
wasn''t something we wanted to
live with
pollution cleanups
and capitalism
when people get tired of pollution
they will get it cleaned up

 

[billc]

Well...the politicians made those regulations because their wealthy donors said, "we really want you to clean up that pollution, if you promise to do that, we will give you money and vote for you." You see, when we were cleaning up our mess because of democracy and capitalism, the socialists in Russia, and china were still polluting their countries because people are simply replacable cogs in the machine. The cleanest countries are not by accident the wealthiest countries, the same goes for towns and cities.

 

[Tez3]

Well...the politicians made those regulations because their wealthy donors said, "we really want you to clean up that pollution, if you promise to do that, we will give you money and vote for you." You see, when we were cleaning up our mess because of democracy and capitalism, the socialists in Russia, and china were still polluting their countries because people are simply replacable cogs in the machine. The cleanest countries are not by accident the wealthiest countries, the same goes for towns and cities.

That's a load of codswallop, if the wealthy countries are cleaner it's because they are dumping their waste on the poorer countries! If you aren't trolling here you are the most severely misguided person I've ever come across. You are making things up as you go along and I've never been convinced that you aren't doing it to wind people up tbh. Seriously, I'm not attacking you but I find it really hard to believe that you don't do this out of mischief because no one can believe so many ridiculous things in the face of evidence. Two economists don't outdo the world's leading authority on German history when the subject is German history. It's not just pick what you want to believe especially when it comes to global warming when what you do will affect the rest of us. I hope you have the decency at least to recycle or is that too left wing for you?

 

[elder999]

Well...the politicians made those regulations because their wealthy donors said, "we really want you to clean up that pollution, if you promise to do that, we will give you money and vote for you." You see, when we were cleaning up our mess because of democracy and capitalism, the socialists in Russia, and china were still polluting their countries because people are simply replacable cogs in the machine. The cleanest countries are not by accident the wealthiest countries, the same goes for towns and cities.

Sooo....erm......no.


Once again, bill, you're doing like the rest of us, and talking about things you know nothing about. We humans seem to like doing that-I'm no different than any of you, except that, in this instance, I do know what I'm talking about.

See, back when you were about 2, and likely not reading much of anything, and I was 9, and-really, for long stretches of time, about all I could do was read, and I was getting into what would be a lifelong habit of reading everything-well, anyway, back in 1969 I read about these really odd events in the papers, and saw some of them on TV. Of course, something had to be a really big deal to make the national TV news back then-not like today, when any old cop dressed as a clown shooting someone makes the news-and these events were big deals


See, on June 22, 1969, six days before my birthday, and a roughly a month before we landed a man on the moon, the Cuyahoga River.....caught fire.

Of course, this wasn't unprecdented-long used as an industrial sewer, the Cuyahoga had caught fire on nine separate earlier occasions, the first as early as 1868. This fire only lasted 30 minutes or so. Later that summer, the Detroit river caught fire. Both of these rivers empty into Lake Erie, which was described at the time as, well, here:

Each day, Detroit, Cleveland and 120 other municipalities fill Erie with 1.5 billion gallons of "inaequately treated wastes, including nitrates and phosphates ... These chemicals act as fertilizer for growths of algae that suck oxygen from the lower depths and rise to the surface as odoriferous green scum ... Commercial and game fish—blue pike, whitefish, sturgeon, northern pike—have nearly vanished, yielding the waters to trash fish that need less oxygen. Weeds proliferate, turning water frontage into swamp. In short, Lake Erie is in danger of dying by suffocation. – Time Magazine, August 1969

Needless to say, by the end of the summer, people-and not just "wealthy donors" went applesauce. Cities like Cleveland, so rightly proud of their industry, were forced to look at an environmental legacy of shame. It was these events that led to Gaylord Nelson, a senator from Wisconsin, proposing the firsr Earth Day, the passing of the Clean Water Act. and our signing an international treaty with Canada for water quality.

You can read a little about the Cuyahoga river firesjhere. I could almost add that the river became flammable due to unchecked, unregulated, laissez faire capitalism, but what would be the point?

Oh,did I just do that? You see how that works? :lfao:

Prior to the Clean Water Act, congress passed, and Nixon had signed, back in 1970, a Clean Air Act, that created the EPA and established standards for key pollutants and the ability of citizens to sue polluters. It was this that led to better air quality, and a reduction in any number of emissions at the time. While there was no key event, it was largely in response to what had been perceived as a problem and addressed with public health law since 1963, and perhaps a little earlier, when we became capable of measuring just how much crap is in our air. Most interestingly, the Clean Air Act largely leaves enforcement up to the states, with the EPA providing scientific assistance when needed.

In any case, these laws weren't made while we were becoming rich, or because we were rich-we'd been the richest country in the world for most of that period between 1870 and 1960 when we did the polluting. They were made because the entire country-politicians and plebiscite-recognized that we were like a baby that had crapped in its own crib for a hundred years, and no one had bothered to clean up after it, and that we were killing off our own environment, and recognized a simple equation that rabid anti-environmentalists seem to like to ignore:

If our environment dies, we die.


Politicians made those regulations
because of democracy and capitalism
socialists in Russia and China
still polluting because
people are simply replaceable
cleanest countries the wealthiest countries
the same for cities and towns
not by accident
wealthy donors say
clean it up.

 

[Sensei Payne]

The Hudson River, which I pretty much grew up on, was nearly a chemical laden, sewage filled cesspool at the time, and by the time I reached young adulthood, it was cleaner than it had been in 100 years, because regulations made the corporations that dirtied it clean it up.

I don't know if I buy into the full on global warming deal quite yet...I don't think that an adverage Joe and really do anything about it...even if I ran my car, every minute of the day for the rest of my life...I would do very very very little enviromental damage.

but on the other hand, pollution is still a problem, and the corporations that are doing the substantial damage to our enviroment with there chemical waste, and what not...should be the ones to pay...problem with that is..the cost gets handed down to the consumer.

A carbon tax wouldn't be the way to fix this situation...its just another way to get the rich richer.

 

[elder999]

A carbon tax wouldn't be the way to fix this situation...its just another way to get the rich richer.

Again, I have to point out that popular meme of callling this a "tax," is generated by the corporations that don't want to undertake the costs of addressing the problem.

What it actually is is a free market capitalist solution to the problem, and one that has worked with other pollutants in the past.

Again, back in the 79's, another pollution problem was "acid rain."

SO2 emissions from coal burning power plants combined with water in the atmosphere to form H2SO4-sulphuric acid, which came down with the rain, lowering the pH of rivers and lakes, killing fish and algae. The problem was addressed by placing limits on SO2 emissions, and imposing fees and fines for those emissions, as well as methods of measuring them. Ultimately, what happened was that the utilities implemented measures to remove SO2 from plant emissions-to the point where most coal-burning power plants in our country remove nearly 100% of the SO2, and, at 24, you've probably never even heard of "acid rain." This was done with minimal costs passed on to consumers, because, at the time, all utilities were regulated, and had to bring rate increases to a public service commission of one sort or another for approval. While some costs were passed on to consumers, a great deal was defrayed by utilities being able to trade emission credits with other plants and utilities-they still do this with SO2 for when equipment is out of service, or to avoid excessive removal -which they don't want to have to achieve all of the time-98.2% is a high enough average to be held to.

Of course, there is not solution for CO2 emissions on the horizon, but, impose a schedule of fees and fines for emissions, and watch how quickly the utilities come up with a solution.

I don't know if I buy into the full on global warming deal quite yet...I don't think that an adverage Joe and really do anything about it...even if I ran my car, every minute of the day for the rest of my life...I would do very very very little enviromental damage.

Let's examine that.

Some basic assumptions: To cover a distance of 100 km (60 miles), a car consumes 7.0 dm3 gasoline (1.8gal., U,S,). Calculate how much O2 it consumes and how much CO2 it produces assuming complete fuel combustion. Let us take the gasoline density to be 730 kg.dm3 and the elemental composition 89 % C and 11 % H (weight %).

C + O2 → CO2
4 H + O2 → 2 H2O
Gasoline weight m = 7.0 dm3 . 0.730 kg.dm3 = 5.11 kg (a bit more than 11 lbs,.)
Weight of C m(C) = 0.89 . 5.11 kg
Weight of H m(H) = 0.11 . 5.11 kg
Substance amount of C n(C) = 0.89 . 5.11 kg/0.012 kg.mol-1 = 379 mol
Substance amount of H n (H) = 0.11 . 5.11 kg/0.001 kg.mol-1 = 562 mol

The equations show that n (CO2) = n(C) and n (O2) = n(C) + 1/4 n (H)

The combustion thus gives rise to 379 mol CO2 and consumes
(379 + 562/4)mol = 519.5 mol O2

Weight of produced CO2 m (CO2) = 379 mol . 0.044 kg.mol-1 = 16.7 kg(36.74lbs.)

Weight of consumed O2 m (O2) = 519.5 mol . 0.032 kg.mol-1 = 16.6 kg


So, a 1 hr. trip in your car releases more than 35 lbs. of CO2 to the atmosphere. 24 hours would be nearly 900 lbs. of CO2-881 lbs .


That;s just your car, That's not counting other pollutants, That's not factroring in the millions of cars every day.

Very little environmental damage indeed.....

 

[Sensei Payne]

Again, I have to point out that popular meme of callling this a "tax," is generated by the corporations that don't want to undertake the costs of addressing the problem.

I think you misunderstand what I am calling a tax. I'm not talking about what the corporations pass on to us..I am talking about what will effect us directly...with the price of gas, Utility bills, etc..and in today's economy, the people just can't afford it.

IMO We need to find a clean burning fuel...so sort of an alternate fuel source...unfortunately, the whole world is addicted to Oil...and weening them off of it enough to save us at the pump, save our Ozone, and of course completely abolish the need for Middle East superiority.

 

[Tez3]

I don't know if I buy into the full on global warming deal quite yet...I don't think that an adverage Joe and really do anything about it...even if I ran my car, every minute of the day for the rest of my life...I would do very very very little enviromental damage.

but on the other hand, pollution is still a problem, and the corporations that are doing the substantial damage to our enviroment with there chemical waste, and what not...should be the ones to pay...problem with that is..the cost gets handed down to the consumer.

A carbon tax wouldn't be the way to fix this situation...its just another way to get the rich richer.

This is where people are mistaken, each and everyone of us can help make the enviroment cleaner and healthier. Running your car efficiently would not just help promote a cleaner atmosphere it would save you money. If everyone did it instead of shrugging their shoulders and saying they can't do anything a lot would be achieved. If everyone turned lights, televisions etc off that they weren't using it would save energy as well as money, leaving electircal goods on standby still costs you money, turn them off. Recycle your rubbish, if everyone did this it would help. If you have to, be the first in your street, town even, to get out and actively help by doing what you can.

Why shouldn't the customers pay btw? They are the consumers, if they didn't buy the products the corporations make there wouldn't be the problem would there? If you boycotted the corporations until they cleaned up their act, they'd have little choice. As it is it's your choice to buy from them so yes you pay for the clean up that or boycott them.

 

[Sensei Payne]

Why shouldn't the customers pay btw? They are the consumers, if they didn't buy the products the corporations make there wouldn't be the problem would there? If you boycotted the corporations until they cleaned up their act, they'd have little choice. As it is it's your choice to buy from them so yes you pay for the clean up that or boycott them.

I give you that..people can boycott...to bad that now that we have global economics...boycotting doesn't really do to much. That doesn't mean that I have to give them MY support...and of course, I want to get the best milage from my car anyways, due to gas prices, so I already drive my car spairingly as it is...and get regular oil changes, change the air filter, etc etc.

The REAL eco villians are those large corporations that are poisioning our waters and smoging up our air, improper waste disposal is a huge cause for pollution. Those violators should pick up the tab..not everyday people who are just trying to get to work in the morning like most of us.

 

[Tez3]

I give you that..people can boycott...to bad that now that we have global economics...boycotting doesn't really do to much. That doesn't mean that I have to give them MY support...and of course, I want to get the best milage from my car anyways, due to gas prices, so I already drive my car spairingly as it is...and get regular oil changes, change the air filter, etc etc.

The REAL eco villians are those large corporations that are poisioning our waters and smoging up our air, improper waste disposal is a huge cause for pollution. Those violators should pick up the tab..not everyday people who are just trying to get to work in the morning like most of us.

But what are these corporations producing? If you buy their products or use their services why shouldn't you pay something towards the clean up?
As long as you believe there's nothing you can do it will carry on, there is however such a thing as people power. So many people demonstrated, complained and took action against the dreaded poll tax here that the government had to change it. It's not beyond people getting together to do something about these corporations instead of wringing their hands and saying 'but what can I do'. There's people risking their lives campaigning against logging in Asia, people are taking action against the deforestation of the Amazon, there's action groups all over the place if you look. Perhaps it might not make a difference in some cases but do you really want to tell the generations that come after us that you didn't even bother trying to stop the pollution?

 

[Sensei Payne]

Wouldn't putting a label on products that the manufactures do pollute exceedingly to create be a good solution.

Kind of like labels for food allergies and cosmectics. That way the consumer can make educated choices.

 

[Tez3]

Wouldn't putting a label on products that the manufactures do pollute exceedingly to create be a good solution.

Kind of like labels for food allergies and cosmectics. That way the consumer can make educated choices.

It's easy enough to do a bit of research on the companies you buy stuff from and find alternatives to those who offend, quite often you can find smaller cleaner companies reasonably locallly which means you help your country in more than one way. Buy organic foods from a source as close to you as possible, that way you get very good, clean food and help the planet.

 

[billc]

Elder, nothing about the clean up of pollution in america contradicts anything that I said. You just left out all the messy details of wealth creation that allowed people the time, and ability to actually care about pollution. It would be like saying that people wanted to know who the best baseball team was and so the white sox and the yankees played a game, the yankees won. A lot of details about the influence of capitalism on these teams would have been left out.

China will get tired of the pollution and they will have the wealth to be in a position to do something about it. They were behind america for so long because of their faulty economic system. Now that they have money, they will slowly be able to change their political system, one hopes.

 

[elder999]

Elder, nothing about the clean up of pollution in america contradicts anything that I said. You just left out all the messy details of wealth creation that allowed people the time, and ability to actually care about pollution. It would be like saying that people wanted to know who the best baseball team was and so the white sox and the yankees played a game, the yankees won. A lot of details about the influence of capitalism on these teams would have been left out.

China will get tired of the pollution and they will have the wealth to be in a position to do something about it. They were behind america for so long because of their faulty economic system. Now that they have money, they will slowly be able to change their political system, one hopes.

.

 

[Sensei Payne]

It's easy enough to do a bit of research on the companies you buy stuff from and find alternatives to those who offend, quite often you can find smaller cleaner companies reasonably locallly which means you help your country in more than one way. Buy organic foods from a source as close to you as possible, that way you get very good, clean food and help the planet.

Not always..and there isn't a whole foods market in every city, or on every corner...its really hard to make good choices with food even with all the labeling..

if there is a label that informs the consumer at least a little bit...would be a huge step forward.

 

[elder999]

Not always..and there isn't a whole foods market in every city, or on every corner...its really hard to make good choices with food even with all the labeling..

if there is a label that informs the consumer at least a little bit...would be a huge step forward.

Ya know, the food from my garden, corn from my field, rabbits from my hutch, chickens, turkeys, and eggs from my coop, goat milk and meat from my herd, deer and elk from my rifle and bow, and bison from my friends farm?

They don't need no stinkin' labels.

 

[Tez3]

Not always..and there isn't a whole foods market in every city, or on every corner...its really hard to make good choices with food even with all the labeling..

if there is a label that informs the consumer at least a little bit...would be a huge step forward.

Good grief! You have no butchers, fishmongers,grocers, greengrocers, bakers or charcuteries, no markets? wow, I find that horrifying to be honest. How can you have cities without these? Is it just supermarkets? You don't have butchers who make their own sausages, will cut meat up for you, prepare and sell game (this is in cities, the country folk do as Elder does), bakeries bake bread, pies, cakes etc. The fishmongers will prepare fresh fish for you. Even our supermarkets have these places in them. This is the case all over Europe, I've shopped in a good many places there. We have markets where you can buy fresh fruit and veg,again the supermarkets here the same. A lot of people do grow their own.

 

[Sensei Payne]

Ya know, the food from my garden, corn from my field, rabbits from my hutch, chickens, turkeys, and eggs from my coop, goat milk and meat from my herd, deer and elk from my rifle and bow, and bison from my friends farm?

They don't need no stinkin' labels.

Good grief! You have no butchers, fishmongers,grocers, greengrocers, bakers or charcuteries, no markets? wow, I find that horrifying to be honest. How can you have cities without these? Is it just supermarkets? You don't have butchers who make their own sausages, will cut meat up for you, prepare and sell game (this is in cities, the country folk do as Elder does), bakeries bake bread, pies, cakes etc. The fishmongers will prepare fresh fish for you. Even our supermarkets have these places in them. This is the case all over Europe, I've shopped in a good many places there. We have markets where you can buy fresh fruit and veg,again the supermarkets here the same. A lot of people do grow their own.

As I agree with both of you on those points. We as Americans live in a disposable socity, and as Americans, we are always on the go, always moving...unlike the European world, we don't get the same Health benifits, or the same amount of vacation time...Americans need convience if we are to be productive members of socity..its why McDonalds is such a big deal here...its easy to get, on the go. (not to mention the addictive nature of there products, but thats another argument).

The labels would be needed to continue our American lifestyles.

 

[Tez3]

As I agree with both of you on those points. We as Americans live in a disposable socity, and as Americans, we are always on the go, always moving...unlike the European world, we don't get the same Health benifits, or the same amount of vacation time...Americans need convience if we are to be productive members of socity..its why McDonalds is such a big deal here...its easy to get, on the go. (not to mention the addictive nature of there products, but thats another argument).

The labels would be needed to continue our American lifestyles.

You want to look at the comparision of Eurpeans and British McDonald with what goes into American ones, we have less fat and sugar, in the UK only British beef from certain cuts is used as well as free range eggs. Fruit is put into the childrens meals as well as water. I'm not saying it's the healthiest meal but the fat levels are lower and it's less calorific, why doesn't McDs do that for you?
http://www.helium.com/items/1882258...nalds-chicken-mcnuggets-in-the-us-and-britain


I have to say when I was looking for comparisons I found a site where the question was asked 'Is McDonalds beef slaughtered or what?' the 'or what' bit got me.

 

[elder999]

Elder, nothing about the clean up of pollution in america contradicts anything that I said. You just left out all the messy details of wealth creation that allowed people the time, and ability to actually care about pollution. It would be like saying that people wanted to know who the best baseball team was and so the white sox and the yankees played a game, the yankees won. A lot of details about the influence of capitalism on these teams would have been left out.

China will get tired of the pollution and they will have the wealth to be in a position to do something about it. They were behind america for so long because of their faulty economic system. Now that they have money, they will slowly be able to change their political system, one hopes.

The messy detail of wealth creation that I left out is the numerous companies and jobs created by having to clean the stuff up. Period. Having to clean it up is independent of wealth-in this country, we're starting to focus on reining in CO2 emissions. The amount of atmospheric CO2 has increased by 40% since the start of the Industrial Revolution-and man is entirely responsible for this.


And, in reference to the entire food/gardening/animal husbandry vs. McDonalds/supermarket distraction, government regulation and competition from the "big box store" are making it harder and harder for the local fishmonger/green grocer/butcher shop to exsit. Pending government regulations are going to make it harder and harder for individuals like me to raise their own food-it's not in the corporate interest for us to get our food anywhere but from conglomerates like ConAgra.