Snapping Twig, torque or counter-torque??

[True2Kenpo]

Fellow Kenpoists,

I just wanted to pose this question to everyone to see how they few the first move in Snapping Twig...

When you step back with your left foot and execute the break or sprain on the elbow are you utilizing torque or counter-torque with the move?

Thanks in advance

Good journey!

Respectfully,
Joshua Ryer
UPK Pittsburgh

 

[Roland]

...but it is not.



It is really back up mass!

 

[Kirk]

I'm not qualified to say, but I'll take a guess. Good post, I'm sure
I'll learn a lot.

My guess is that since you're stepping back to a right neutral
bow, and the right heel palm to the elbow is the major move
(which goes to the right), then it's torque.

My notes tell me that my instructor feels that it's opposing forces,
since there's a right and left strike, simultaneously.

I know I'm probably wrong, but hopefully there's at least some
validity there. :asian:

 

[kenpo3631]

Originally posted by Roland
...but it is not.



It is really back up mass!

I agree, the underlying power principle is Back Up Mass.:asian:

 

[Kenpodoc]

I don't use the term counter torque so I'd be interested in a definition.

I'd call the arm break direct rotation and because the striking force is at a roughly 90 degree angle to my body motion I would say the principle force is torque. All torque involves some backup mass and in this case the weight of my hand and arm will be backup mass (but this is secondary). The technique also involves backup mass to help straighten the opponents arm.

Over all the set up is back upmass (straighten the opponents arm) and then torque for the potential arm break.

As to the opposing forces this is backup massto pull backwards setting up an anotomic weakness and allowing the relatively weak torque of the elbow strike to potentially cause serious damage.

respectfully,

Jeff

 

[True2Kenpo]

Originally posted by Kenpodoc
I don't use the term counter torque so I'd be interested in a definition.

I'd call the arm break direct rotation...

Jeff,

Hello sir! How are you?

I do agree that both torque and what I am considering "counter-torque" to both be rotating forces.

I guess I am viewing torque as being the body moving in the same rotation as the block or strike. And conversly counter-torque as being the body moving in the opposition rotation as the block of strike.

Take for example the second outward and the second downward block of Short Form One. I view those two blocks as utilizing counter-torque. With the first outward block the hips move with and in the same direction as the rotation to execute the block because one is facing twelve o'clock and must step and rotate towards 9 o'clock. Where as, when you execute the second outward, one is already facing 9 o'clock, they just step through reverse and their hips move in the opposite direction of the block being executed.

So though I do agree that both are rotating forces, I guess I distiquish between the body moving in the same direction as the strike or block and the body moving in the opposite direction of the strike or block.

Anyway, please let me know what you think if this makes any sense

I do wish you the best and hope that are paths cross again. Good journey sir!

Respectfully,
Joshua Ryer
UPK Pittsburgh

 

[Kenpodoc]

Josh,

That makes sense. I think we are saying the same thing.

I call the power principle Torque. When the shoulder moves in the same direction as the pelvis I call the movement "Rotation", and when the shoulders move in the opposite direction as the pelvis I call it "Counter rotation.

Thank you for such a nice clear explanation. It is certainly clear why you have such an enthusiastic, well trained, talented and friendly group of students.

Respectfully,

Jeff

 

[True2Kenpo]

Jeff,

Thank you sir for your kind comments!! It does mean a lot. In return, I felt honored to have you guys out this past Feb. You guys made the trek and I hope it was worth your time. Next time, I hope you guys could stay for dinner.

On another note about the subject matter... I wonder how many people term things differently, yet they all mean the same thing It is nice to just try to understand each other and see a different perspective!

Again thank you sir! Good journey.

Respectfully,
Joshua Ryer
UPK Pittsburgh

 

[lonekimono]

someone has got to tell me how you can have backup mass without moving forward??
backup mass will not work if YOU ARE STEPPING AWAY,
you do the math.

yours in kenpo

 

[Kenpodoc]

Originally posted by lonekimono
someone has got to tell me how you can have backup mass without moving forward??
backup mass will not work if YOU ARE STEPPING AWAY,
you do the math.

yours in kenpo

In Lone Kimono, Snapping Twig and other techniques you anchor your opponents hand and step backwards. Your bodies mass contributes to the force and straightens the opponents arm. In effect your mass is pulling your opponent instead of pushing but it is still backup mass.

In Obscure Claws after the arm break you step forward whileyou do an offset sandwhich, L heelpalm to the chest, with simultaneous back knucke to the back of the head. The power principle for the Heelpalm is torque as you turn but the backknucke is driven by your step away and is backup mass in a pullng manner.

respectfully

Jeff

 

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by lonekimono
backup mass will not work if YOU ARE STEPPING AWAY,
you do the math.

yours in kenpo

What about striking serpent's head?

jb :asian:

 

[lonekimono]

what about it?




yours in kenpo

 

[lonekimono]

hey kenpodoc if i'm understanding this right? what i think you are saying is that it's the other guys mass you are talking about?
i hope so.



yours in kenpo

if you know yourself,you know others.

:asian:

 

[FlashingDaggers]

We now have Reverse Backup mass huh

 

[kenpo3631]

Originally posted by lonekimono
someone has got to tell me how you can have backup mass without moving forward??
backup mass will not work if YOU ARE STEPPING AWAY,
you do the math.

yours in kenpo

Back up mass is defined as you yourweight moving in line with you strike on a horizontal or vertical plane.:asian:

 

[kenpo3631]

Originally posted by kenpo3631
Back up mass is defined as you yourweight moving in line with you strike on a horizontal or vertical plane.:asian:

It can be utilized moving forward or backwards.

Remember...for every move there is an opposite and reverse.:asian:

 

[Kenpomachine]

I believe Lonekimono was refereing to the fact that if you and your strike are moving backwards, its not your mass the one backing up the strike, but the attacker's, I believe.
Well, at least that's how it works in striking serpent's head...

 

[kenpo3631]

Originally posted by Kenpomachine
I believe Lonekimono was refereing to the fact that if you and your strike are moving backwards, its not your mass the one backing up the strike, but the attacker's, I believe.
Well, at least that's how it works in striking serpent's head...

No it's not. You weight is in line with your strike. Your weapon is in line with your body. You should be moving your mass as one entity.:asian:

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by lonekimono
what about it?

He's talking about the same thing as Blinding Sacrifice. Executing the double back knuckles to the kidney's while moving your body backwards. This is still back up mass it's just moving backwards.:asian:

 

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
He's talking about the same thing as Blinding Sacrifice. Executing the double back knuckles to the kidney's while moving your body backwards. This is still back up mass it's just moving backwards.:asian:

Exactly...

jb