Snap Kicks VS Thrusting Kicks

[Curlykarateka]

just wanted to facilitate a discussion. For both sport and street, are slower but devastating thrusting kicks to bladders and the like more effective than snappy quick kicks. I am of the mind that thrust=self defense and snap=sport. Please, If i am wrong, explain why.

 

[Touch Of Death]

just wanted to facilitate a discussion. For both sport and street, are slower but devastating thrusting kicks to bladders and the like more effective than snappy quick kicks. I am of the mind that thrust=self defense and snap=sport. Please, If i am wrong, explain why.

I'm not sure what the difference is. The idea of the snap is to gauge a landing; so, If you aim past the target for your snap, there isn't a difference unless you are proposing that gauging is bad.
Sean

 

[Curlykarateka]

I'm not sure what the difference is. The idea of the snap is to gauge a landing; so, If you aim past the target for your snap, there isn't a difference unless you are proposing that gauging is bad.
Sean

I'm not.There is a difference I think. A light snap kick uses more of the leg muscles that straighten the legs but a thrust comes from the hip a bit more, kinda like a stomp. I might not be making sense, try a youtube video.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I'm not.There is a difference I think. A light snap kick uses more of the leg muscles that straighten the legs but a thrust comes from the hip a bit more, kinda like a stomp. I might not be making sense, try a youtube video.

No, I'm fine stomping with a snap.

 

[K-man]

just wanted to facilitate a discussion. For both sport and street, are slower but devastating thrusting kicks to bladders and the like more effective than snappy quick kicks. I am of the mind that thrust=self defense and snap=sport. Please, If i am wrong, explain why.

In Goju there is a different interpretation of kicking depending on whether your school is Okinawan based or Japanese based. Japanese based which is the style developed by Gogen Yamaguchi is more likely to employ the snap kick with recoil that I think you are referring to as 'snappy quick'. It is a good point collector in tournaments. Generally with that kick you lift the knee until the thigh is roughly horizontal before the foot is snapped forward. To me, it is a telegraphed kick that in a tournament you can use as a decoy. It won't work as well on the street as it can be quite easy to catch.

The thrusting kick is a different animal. It facilitates a forward step to close, something you often don't want to do when you are sparring. Okinawan Goju is different in that the objective is to close the gap. So a thrusting kick with your weight behind it going in, then down, makes it much more difficult to hold, even if it is caught. There are ways of making it almost impossible to catch but that's a different thread. The thrusting kick appears to be slower because you don't have the snappy retraction but in fact the speed of the kick is the same. You are quite right in suggesting that the snap kick is mainly utilising the leg muscles and that the thrust comes from the hip, but most of the power of the thrusting kick comes from proper transference of body weight. (Similar principle to the WC one inch punch.)

Going back to Goju, if you look at the kata that contain front kicks, only Saifa kata fully retracts the leg. Every other kick is a thrusting kick into a step forward. Saifa, to me, is different because in my Saifa bunkai the 'kick' is not a kick.

What I am basically saying is you assumption is correct for the reasons I have outlined above. :asian:

 

[seasoned]

Snap kick to the groin thrust kick to the knee.

The deferents is like a ball bouncing back off the target while the thrust is like mud sticking to the target. Each has it's place. A snap to the groin leaves the target in place but bent over slightly, the thrust to the ribs sends the target reeling back, with hopefully cracked ribs.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I use a thrust kick for closing or creating a gap and for targets low on the body (nothing higher than the solar plexus). I use the snap kick for shots to any part of the body or for closing the gap.
Both can have tons of power in them.

 

[Touch Of Death]

In Goju there is a different interpretation of kicking depending on whether your school is Okinawan based or Japanese based. Japanese based which is the style developed by Gogen Yamaguchi is more likely to employ the snap kick with recoil that I think you are referring to as 'snappy quick'. It is a good point collector in tournaments. Generally with that kick you lift the knee until the thigh is roughly horizontal before the foot is snapped forward. To me, it is a telegraphed kick that in a tournament you can use as a decoy. It won't work as well on the street as it can be quite easy to catch.

The thrusting kick is a different animal. It facilitates a forward step to close, something you often don't want to do when you are sparring. Okinawan Goju is different in that the objective is to close the gap. So a thrusting kick with your weight behind it going in, then down, makes it much more difficult to hold, even if it is caught. There are ways of making it almost impossible to catch but that's a different thread. The thrusting kick appears to be slower because you don't have the snappy retraction but in fact the speed of the kick is the same. You are quite right in suggesting that the snap kick is mainly utilising the leg muscles and that the thrust comes from the hip, but most of the power of the thrusting kick comes from proper transference of body weight. (Similar principle to the WC one inch punch.)

Going back to Goju, if you look at the kata that contain front kicks, only Saifa kata fully retracts the leg. Every other kick is a thrusting kick into a step forward. Saifa, to me, is different because in my Saifa bunkai the 'kick' is not a kick.

What I am basically saying is you assumption is correct for the reasons I have outlined above. :asian:

What?

 

[K-man]

What?

Not sure if your question refers to my typo or my explanation from a Goju perspective.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Not sure if your question refers to my typo or my explanation from a Goju perspective.

Thrust is a method of execution, snap is the return or not how you returned.

 

[K-man]

Thrust is a method of execution, snap is the return or not how you returned.

Now you have lost me. You study Kenpo, a system that is similar to mine but I have no idea how you teach kicks. Curlykarateka has posted that he is a Goju student. Within Goju there are two methods of kicking depending on the style of Goju you train. Okinawan Goju is more close range so the kicks are different to the Japanese style that can be more sport oriented. I have trained both and taught both so I'm looking at it purely from that perspective. :asian:

 

[seasoned]

just wanted to facilitate a discussion. For both sport and street, are slower but devastating thrusting kicks to bladders and the like more effective than snappy quick kicks. I am of the mind that thrust=self defense and snap=sport. Please, If i am wrong, explain why.

I am of the mind set that if it works then use it. I have studied Okinawan GoJu all of my life and agree there are little to no snap kicks to be found in GoJu kata.

But, Supairenpei kata frame #216

 

[K-man]

I am of the mind set that if it works then use it. I have studied Okinawan GoJu all of my life and agree there are little to no snap kicks to be found in GoJu kata.

But, Supairenpei kata frame #216

Shinjo was a student of Yagi. As such he didn't study under Miyagi or Miyazato. Yagi established the Meibukan while Miyazato had the Jundokan. Shinjo in turn opened the Shobukan. If, for example, you look at Yamaguchi's kata, it is similar to Shinjo's. in Suparinpei the Sanchin moves are slow. In the Jundokan version, and also passed down by Morio Higaonna, they are fast. So really Goju now has many branches, but, from my observation, all the Okinawan variants have one thing in common. They are all close quarter fighting systems. In your video 2.16 is a crescent kick followed by a jump kick. But even that finishes by stepping forward.

You might enjoy this article by Robert Hunt ...

We idly chatted while one competitor followed another. Then, as I turned away for a second from the competition, I heard what sounded something like a corn threshing machine gearing up in the center ring. I looked back the sound in time to see a long, lanky, military-cut black belt stomping, snapping and shouting his way across the floor through Seisan, with enough power to light up a small town electric grid. I watched in amazement, wondering in disbelief if there was possibly something I had missed in karate 101.
“What’s that?” I asked my friend.


“It’s supposed to be Goju Ryu,” he answered, condescendingly, “but I’ve never seen Goju Ryu that looked anything like that before.” And he brushed it off as maybe some buffoon trying to compete.


In the ensuing years, I came to realize the significance of that statement – and how typical of the karate circle within which I moved. We all thought we knew so much and we knew so little. I get embarrassed at the memory.


What he said was painfully accurate. Even after 10 years in the art, he hadn’t ever seen Goju like that before and neither had I and neither had a lot of people in the karate world of the day. But it was real Goju, authentic and straight out of Okinawa, right where it all began.


I had become accustomed to Shotokan - adapted from karate by the JKA to win tournaments - and soft Japanese Goju with its hint of mysticism and its long haired teacher, or snappy Shito Ryu. But this was something different. This guy looked like he could actually hurt somebody.

http://www.usadojo.com/articles/robert-hunt/masanobu-gray.html

Most people just aren't aware of the huge differences between Okinawan and Japanese karate. That is why I swapped to the Okinawan karate immediately I was shown it. :asian:

 

[seasoned]

Not to side tract from the thread but just a comment.

Yes you are correct, Masanobu Shinjo was an instructor under Master Yagi. It was stated by Master Yagi at a point in time that Shinjo Sensei had the same powerful body as Master Miyagi and preformed his kata closer to the way that Master Miyagi performed them then any other Go-Ju-Ryu master. Having been associated with the Shobukan at one point in time, I had a close tie with Shinjo Sensei through my since passed Sensei.
Thanks for sharing K-man. (seasoned)

 

[Cyriacus]

Now, this is for me specifically.
I use snap kicks as a strike. To the torso, for instance.
I use thrusting kicks as a forceful push. To the knee, or ankle, or instance.

 

[mook jong man]

In my lineage of Wing Chun the kicks all look pretty much the same.
The reason for that is that the angle of the leg is always maintained until just before impact , in the case of thrusting kicks the angle of the leg is then extended and the heel driven through the target.

There is no chambering of kicks , from the stance the legs are already in the correct angle for action , it is just a matter of moving the leg from the floor straight to the target
In the case of kicking the groin with the instep or hook kicking the thigh with the shin (think close range version of thai leg kick) the angle of the leg is maintained all the way through , these hook kicks are powered by a 45 degree pivot of the whole body , they are very powerful and require very little space to execute.
It is believed that maintaining the angle of the leg results in the opponent being hit with the full weight of the limb , not just primarily the lower portion , and doesn't require any wasted movement.

Closely related to this concept is relaxation , just as with the Wing Chun hands , the legs must also be relaxed to allow for faster reflex , greater acceleration and more transference of body mass into the strike .
The feeling we are going for is that of a penetrating "dead weight"

Even though the strikes both hand and leg are linear , we are visualising a circular force in the shoulder or hip joint to drive the strikes forward for maximum efficiency.
Relaxation is crucial to minimising any friction in those joints , as is the switching off of any muscles that are not needed to execute the action itself.

The power is generated mainly from the triangular Wing Chun stance which concentrates all body mass to the centerline.
Further power is generated by slightly pushing the hips forward and pivoting the support foot 45 degrees at the point of impact this brings the center of mass slightly forward which starts the process of us bridging the gap between us and our target.
As I think K-man alluded to before about his Okinawan karate , in Wing Chun each kick is a step.

Soon as that kick hits the floor we are springing forward to get in and use our hands , to capitolise on our mass going forward from the kick which helps generate power for the hand strikes .
As you can imagine this takes quite a bit of coordination and timing , and we have a form called Chum Kiu which helps to develop the mobility skills needed for this type of thing.

 

[Zero]

just wanted to facilitate a discussion. For both sport and street, are slower but devastating thrusting kicks to bladders and the like more effective than snappy quick kicks. I am of the mind that thrust=self defense and snap=sport. Please, If i am wrong, explain why.

Curly, is your quesiton/post just in relaiton to medium to low height "front" snap or thrust kicks, ie thrust kicks to knee/groin/abdomen level and the equivalent heights using a snap return or are you talking about snap/thrust kicks in general at any height/target on the body?

If we are just talking lower range then as noted by others, either type of execution has its place in both street or competition. A snap kick to the groin can be good but then again, if the opportunity is there, a simple straight leg swing up into the groin with the shin can be equally as effective. I have used thrust kicks in tournaments to put opponents into the ropes but, while never used in reality, in our goju ryu club have trained a lot of thrust kicks to abdomen as a self defence move on an attacker coming into you. Obviously thrust or stomp kick to knee or thigh just above knee is very effective to take out the leg.

Going higher, I would favour the snap, being a high chambered snap kick, as I see the thrust as a much more linear technique. You can of course do stomp or thrust kicks to the solar plexus or even jaw but I feel in general you are left vulnerable for a bit longer than a snap and on a worse angle to negate a take-down. A snap kick to the side of the head can definitely be a game stopper in the ring and on the street (acknowledging many have issues, and good reasons, for not wanting to engage in high kicks in SD situations or otherwise out of a controlled tournament). For both street and tournament (where the rules permit grabbing or are full mma) the snap kick is a good way of minimising the risk of your leg being trapped by your opponent/attacker. While you can "snap" back a stomp or thrust kick, due to the muscle mechanics employed I (personally) feel a true snap kick can be pulled back/recoiled after the strike (or the miss) quicker than a thrust.

I have always concentrated on full contact tournaments rather than sport karate, or when I was a kid sport TKD, but have had some sport/point fights. You generally do not (well I didn't) see the thrust kicks but, and perhaps due to that, I did get quite good at hitting even high ranking sport fighters with a thrust kick to the abdomen.

Obviously you also have straight leg head high kicks, often off the back leg, with the shin connecting to the head but these are another story in themselves. They generally go right "through" or past a target and while they can be retracted, it is not nearly as fast or as easy to do so as with a snap kick. That said, when those round houses connect it's pretty much good night Irene.

I guess I could have avoided all of the above and just said both are equally as good for SD or ring, depending on the situation presented (think someone may have already said that...)

 

[Unreal Combat]

just wanted to facilitate a discussion. For both sport and street, are slower but devastating thrusting kicks to bladders and the like more effective than snappy quick kicks. I am of the mind that thrust=self defense and snap=sport. Please, If i am wrong, explain why.

Depending on the sport, both snap kicks and thrusting kicks can be equally effective. Quick snap kicks can help you rack up the points. Thrusting kicks can help you wear down an opponents guard and body.

 

[Noah_Legel]

Since the OP is a Goju-Ryu practitioner, and other Goju-Ryu practitioners have already responded, I probably can't add a whole lot that will be specifically relevant to the OP's training. That said, from the perspective of my branch of Okinawan karate, front snap kicks are very commonly incorporated as an entry technique. Often we will throw a front snap kick to the ankle, knee, or nerves on the inside of the shin or thigh, as we deflect an incoming attack. It's painful and distracting, so it's useful in setting up your counter, although it isn't usually a fight ender on its own--that's what the shovel kicks of Naihanchi are for. To be fair, though, we are stepping in as we throw those snapping kicks, so it doesn't take much to give it some extra thrust.

 

[K-man]

To be fair, though, we are stepping in as we throw those snapping kicks, so it doesn't take much to give it some extra thrust.

That's pretty much what I was saying. From my POV there is no difference in speed between a snap kick and a thrust kick, just that the thrust kick only pulls back far enough to facilitate the step in. (Actually in a previous post I failed to mention the forward kick which finishes with a step back.) :asian: