sk katas and grappling

[marlon]

Has anyone found or been taught grtappling from the katas in shaolinkempo? Or, the forms of kajukenbo?I know that they are in the traditional Okinawan froms.

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[MJS]

Has anyone found or been taught grtappling from the katas in shaolinkempo? Or, the forms of kajukenbo?I know that they are in the traditional Okinawan froms.

Respectfully,
Marlon

Yes there are applications in them. Were you looking at a specific kata?

Mike

 

[Danjo]

The combinations have many takedowns, locks and holds in them. Plus there were whole nights devoted to grappling in SKK.

There's also a hell of a lot of grappling in Kajukenbo from what I've seen so far.

In SKK Kata #4, there is a takedown technique with a leg-hock with the left arm.

 

[Robert Lee]

Katas from several style have joint control and take downs How they get trained and understood now that is up to the instructor. Some never really give you the open training to make those moves workable other then in katas or two man drills. Where you know its prearranged training. And some instructors do not even know the movements in the katas they instruct sad but true

 

[DavidCC]

throwing or felling, yes

fighting on the ground, no.

 

[marlon]

I guess this is the question

The combinations have many takedowns, locks and holds in them. Plus there were whole nights devoted to grappling in SKK.

There's also a hell of a lot of grappling in Kajukenbo from what I've seen so far.

In SKK Kata #4, there is a takedown technique with a leg-hock with the left arm.

Where there seems to be much throwing and felling in the katas of SK there are fewer joiont locks and ground fighting seems nearly non existant from the katas. We work ground fighting asnd techniques also but that is from my judo experience and from what i learn from Shihan Ingargiola and from the pinans.
Has anyone found or been taught ground work techniques from the katas?

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[Hand Sword]

From the katas I did, there were no groundfighting in them, just felling stuff.

 

[Danjo]

I guess this is the question




Where there seems to be much throwing and felling in the katas of SK there are fewer joiont locks and ground fighting seems nearly non existant from the katas. We work ground fighting asnd techniques also but that is from my judo experience and from what i learn from Shihan Ingargiola and from the pinans.
Has anyone found or been taught ground work techniques from the katas?

Respectfully,
Marlon

Marlon,

No. There is no "Ground fighting" from the katas. They are more concerned with punching, kicking, joint locks and takedowns (sweeps, hocks, and throws) than with ground fighting. The practice for ground fighting is done seperately. Of course, there are many forms that I was not taught due to my rank, so I'm not saying that this is a conclusive answer concerning SKK forms. But, up to the Shodan level, there do not seem to be any ground fighting applications. Unless, you count stomping on someone's head, gouging their eyes, axe kicking them etc. while they are on the ground as "Ground Fighting."

 

[CTKempo Todd]

Marlon,

Bonjour..

Interesting question. Try exploring possibities and learning some yourself. Your question made me think about this myself so thank you.

Take apart some of the bunkai in your katas and attemp to apply them from a ground positino. Same goes for combinations and kempo techniques. I bet we can come up with some interesting interpretations.

Your brother in CT.

Todd Guay
CT Kempo and Fitness
South Meriden, CT

 

[John Bishop]

I think one thing we have to remember is that the older Chinese and Okinawan system were basically "kata driven" systems. In other words, most of their fighting techniques were/are extracted from their katas/forms. In old China or Okinawa, when you wanted to learn more fighting techniques you went to an instructor who taught a differant kata or form.

I.M.H.O., in the more modern American systems like Kajukenbo and EPAK, the katas are secondary to the fighting (self defense combinations) techniques. I know for sure that the Kajukenbo katas were developed after the fighting techniques, the opposite of what the Chinese/Okinawans did. So the fighting techniques are already practiced live against a opponant, in addition to doing the techniques (kata) in the air. Whereas the traditionalist have to extract a technique from a kata, and then attempt to apply it to a live opponant.
Kata application may be differant with SKK since they took traditional "Pinan" katas from the Japanese/Okinawan arts.
But I would suggest that if someone wants to have more grappling techniques, get on the mat with a good grappler and learn them. It will save a lot of time over trying to locate the possible grappling techniques in a kata, and then trying to apply it to a live opponant.

 

[CTKempo Todd]

I think one thing we have to remember is that the older Chinese and Okinawan system were basically "kata driven" systems. In other words, most of their fighting techniques were/are extracted from their katas/forms. In old China or Okinawa, when you wanted to learn more fighting techniques you went to an instructor who taught a differant kata or form.

I.M.H.O., in the more modern American systems like Kajukenbo and EPAK, the katas are secondary to the fighting (self defense combinations) techniques. I know for sure that the Kajukenbo katas were developed after the fighting techniques, the opposite of what the Chinese/Okinawans did. So the fighting techniques are already practiced live against a opponant, in addition to doing the techniques (kata) in the air. Whereas the traditionalist have to extract a technique from a kata, and then attempt to apply it to a live opponant.
Kata application may be differant with SKK since they took traditional "Pinan" katas from the Japanese/Okinawan arts.
But I would suggest that if someone wants to have more grappling techniques, get on the mat with a good grappler and learn them. It will save a lot of time over trying to locate the possible grappling techniques in a kata, and then trying to apply it to a live opponant.

Good Point.

 

[marlon]

I think one thing we have to remember is that the older Chinese and Okinawan system were basically "kata driven" systems. In other words, most of their fighting techniques were/are extracted from their katas/forms. In old China or Okinawa, when you wanted to learn more fighting techniques you went to an instructor who taught a differant kata or form.

I.M.H.O., in the more modern American systems like Kajukenbo and EPAK, the katas are secondary to the fighting (self defense combinations) techniques. I know for sure that the Kajukenbo katas were developed after the fighting techniques, the opposite of what the Chinese/Okinawans did. So the fighting techniques are already practiced live against a opponant, in addition to doing the techniques (kata) in the air. Whereas the traditionalist have to extract a technique from a kata, and then attempt to apply it to a live opponant.
Kata application may be differant with SKK since they took traditional "Pinan" katas from the Japanese/Okinawan arts.
But I would suggest that if someone wants to have more grappling techniques, get on the mat with a good grappler and learn them. It will save a lot of time over trying to locate the possible grappling techniques in a kata, and then trying to apply it to a live opponant.

Yes i agree good point. However, i feel that searching through the forms increases the depth of my understanding just as getting on the mat increases my overall skill. The more i understand the more i can assimilate quickly and use as needed. Just my thoughts on the matter...it also helps me teach better

Respectfully,
marlon