Sip Soo - Ten Hands

[mjd]

I have never heard a good clear definition of the first 2 movements, WOULD BE A CROWD PLEASER to get some insight.

The usual gathering energy, developing Ki, ect, I was told that back in the days, warroirs would prepare for battle by using breathing exercises along with slow and balance movement in a deep trans like state of mine was a method of mine and body control to eliminate pain and gain genater than normal strenght.

What can you say, sounds a little far fetch but what do I know.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

Patrick: I still think it's a bit far-fetched, but if what you say is true, it's plausible. Just remember that TSD got it by way of Japan, though.

mjd: read the post I made before this, about 3 posts up the page.

 

[tsd]

I have just started learning some Tai Chi - Yang Style. There are many things that my Tai Chi Instructor has discussed that I can apply to Sip Soo. I have found it enlightening and helpful. This coincides with previous post dealing with the history of the Hyung.

 

[Badaxel]

I was taught that Sip Soo was a Bo staff form. Mostly bare handed defense against bo staff, but also offensive moves using a bo staff. So it is a bo staff combination form, how to defend against a bo staff, and how to attack with one. The first half of the form moves are all defensive, and then the second half are offensive with a staff.

 

[MBuzzy]

I've definitely heard and seen applications for the bong defense movements, but I've never heard anything about offensive movements being included.

 

[clfsean]

I've never seen the TSD form being talked about, but it's sounds an awful lot like Jutte (10 Hands or similar) from Shotokan.

Anybody got video of this TSD form?

As far as the Chinese Cross Pattern (Sap Ji /Shi Zi), it's common in Southern CMA's for a set to run this pattern & have it in it's name (Sap Ji Kau Dau, Sap Ji Jit Fu, etc...) but I haven't seen too many nonCMA sets run a cross pattern. Most of the ones I'm most familiar with (Shotokan/old TKD) were I patterns.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

@Badaxel: I can see immediately how you would do sip soo with a bong in your hands. Cool.

@clfsean: iirc, jutte and sip soo are roughly equivalent, from what I've seen. I had a video of myself doing sip soo on youtube, but I was really off on balance that day, so I just took it down...videos of it aren't too hard to find, though.

 

[clfsean]

I went & watched it. With a few stylistic differences & from what I remember of that was pretty much Jutte.

 

[B.Redfield]

Yes you are correct,
Jutte(okinwan/Japanese)= Sip Soo(korean)
Pinan(okinawan) = Pyang Ahn(Korean) = Heian(Japanese)
Naihanchi (okinawan/korean)= Tekki(japanese)
Kusanku(okinawan) = Kong Sang Koon(korean)= Kanku(Japanese)

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

You forgot one under Naihanchi/Tekki: Keema Hyung (Korean)

Also, the ITSDF refers to kong sang koon as "kong sohn deh," or something that sounds like that...do not ask me for translation, as I don't even know the form myself, being only an e dan.

Oh, and Bassai (Japanese) = Palche, et al. (Korean)

Tang Soo!

 

[clfsean]

Y

Also, the ITSDF refers to kong sang koon as "kong sohn deh," or something that sounds like that...do not ask me for translation, as I don't even know the form myself, being only an e dan.

Kanku Dai maybe?

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

Kanku Dai maybe?

No, it's just like I posted, "kong sohn deh." I say "sounds like" because I may have gotten the spelling slightly off...I've only seen it written once or twice, and as far as i know it was like that, but mostly I just hear it. TSD is a Korean style, so of course the names of our forms are in Korean.

 

[clfsean]

No, it's just like I posted, "kong sohn deh." I say "sounds like" because I may have gotten the spelling slightly off...I've only seen it written once or twice, and as far as i know it was like that, but mostly I just hear it. TSD is a Korean style, so of course the names of our forms are in Korean.

I know TSD is Korean. Kanku Dai could be a transliteration for your Kong Sohn Deh. I spent the first 10 years of my MA experience learning TKD with the 5 Pyong ahns, Bassai Dai, Kanaku Dai, Jutte, Empi (no bother for Korean translation... I seriously don't know)

B. Redfield listed several forms names in this thread with their Okinawa/Japanese translation to Korean....

B.Redfield Re: Sip Soo - Ten Hands
Yes you are correct,
Jutte(okinwan/Japanese)= Sip Soo(korean)
Pinan(okinawan) = Pyang Ahn(Korean) = Heian(Japanese)
Naihanchi (okinawan/korean)= Tekki(japanese)
Kusanku(okinawan) = Kong Sang Koon(korean)= Kanku(Japanese)

 

[MBuzzy]

clfsean and Master Redfield are both right. The original kata was known as Kanku Dai, when Gichin Funakoshi renamed it to Kanku and when it was translated into Korean, it became Kong Sang Koon. Just like most of our hyung, it was changed ever so slightly when it was imported into Korean, but the hyung is the same.

There is some excellent info on it here.

 

[B.Redfield]

The original kata was known as Kanku Dai, when Gichin Funakoshi renamed it to Kanku and when it was translated into Korean, it became Kong Sang Koon.

Did you mean Kusanku(okinawan) was renamed Kanku(japanese) by Funikoshi??

 

[clfsean]

One thing to remember about the OMA/JMA kata Kanku & Bassai. There's a Sho & Dai version of each.

Probably better info could be found on a JMA website that has a more accurate history of kata. I don't believe the OMAs use a Sho or Dai version of the kata.

 

[MBuzzy]

The original kata was known as Kanku Dai, when Gichin Funakoshi renamed it to Kanku and when it was translated into Korean, it became Kong Sang Koon.

Did you mean Kusanku(okinawan) was renamed Kanku(japanese) by Funikoshi??

Yes, thank you! I mis-typed....

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

One thing to remember about the OMA/JMA kata Kanku & Bassai. There's a Sho & Dai version of each.

Probably better info could be found on a JMA website that has a more accurate history of kata. I don't believe the OMAs use a Sho or Dai version of the kata.

You know, I wondered that. We do Palche (Bassai) So and Palche Deh, but as far as I know the ITF only does Kong Sohn (Kanku) Deh.

I don't know the form yet, though when I do, it might be interesting to look at the differences across styles.

 

[Muwubu16858]

The character's of Ship Soo are, as said before, the Korean equal of Jutte of Shotokan. Most Tang Soo Do circles place this hyung in Neh Ga Ryu, or "inside school" as related to the style of execution of techniques. This is a misconseption, created in part by Funakoshi, who placed it first in the Shorei school, then the Shorin school, and back to the Shorei school in his first three books. Originally, before naming it Jutte, Funakoshi refered to it as Jitsu-Te in his first book from 1922. This is one pronounciation of the form, which is known as Jitte (術手) [pronounced "Sul Soo" in Korea] outside of Shotokan-based systems. It was taught by Itosu Anko Sensei, and arrived into Shotokan most probably through Mabuni Kenwa, who was the second successor of Itosu Ryu. According to the Itosu Kai, which is now headed by Sakagami Sadaaki [4th head of Itosu Ryu{Itosu Anko-Mabuni Kenwa-Sakagami Ryusho-Sakagami Sadaaki}], "It is said that the Jitte, Jion and Jiin Katas are actually all from the same source having been transmitted from the countryside of Tomari. Itosu Anko Sensei recreated these Kata after reorganizing them with the idea of physical fitness in mind and the best way to practice these Kata is in the order of Jitte, Jion, Jiin."**

 

[MBuzzy]

I have also seen Ship Soo written as Jin Twe in Korean - is this just a more direct translation from the Japanese? (I'm being lazy tonight or I'd write out the Hangul....but I forget the spelling.)