Sin

[Brother John]

The concept of original sin, to my understanding, is not that babies are born sinners.
Human beings, by their very nature, are sinful. That is the original sin... your base nature.

Christian scripture claims that

1. through the disobedience of one man (Adam, thru whom mankind descended) the many were made sinners (Romans 5:23) (Only one person who ever lived was sinless... Jesus)
2. The righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace throught the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. (Romans 3: 23-24)

Peace,
Melissa

That's pretty much it in a nutshell I think.
Here's an article that I read a while back that I think puts it well, especially the part about the difference between sin and the sinful nature (original sin).
I'll Cut and Paste, plus give the link: http://www.behindthebadge.net/apologetics/discuss152.html

What is original sin?
Hello

My question is, what is "original sin"? Are we born with Adam's sin attached to us or are we born separated from God but without an actual sin attached, or something else? I am a Christian and have never really thought about our state at birth much, I have only known that my sins since birth have needed paying for and took up Jesus' offer to foot the bill. I ask because my catholic friend puts huge importance on babies having a sin attached, and was horrified to find out that i hadn't had it "baptized" out of them. And when I got to thinking about why I hadn't, although I know why I didn't "get it done to them" (believing baptism to be a symbol of death/rebirth in Christ entered into voluntarily and knowingly by a person who has been saved - ie not a baby) I found myself wondering about the state we are born into.

I will try to explain as well as I understand. Original sin is something passed down to all of us from Adam. It is the sin nature that we all carry. Now think about this, Jesus was born as a human but His Father was God, not man, so He was born without that taint of sin. The sin nature is not the same as a personal sin. What I mean by that is that the Bible tells us that we are all the same, we have all sinned. We sin because of the taint of the sin nature passed down to us, in other words our hearts are evil and therefore we don't do what is right, we sin. You can see it in a child. You don't have to teach a child to be selfish and lie, it comes natural, you have to teach them to share and to tell the truth. That is our sin nature coming through.

Now the Jews believed that there is an age of accountability (I also believe this) at which point the child truly understands right from wrong and that they should do what is right. This is the point that I believe sins are put against their account. Now for a person who is mentally ill and never reaches that age, I believe that God's grace covers them. The same would be true of a child that dies before reaching the age of accountability. Once the person does reach that age it is up to them to either accept God's free gift of salvation or to reject it. Baptizing a child who has not sinned because they don't understand right from wrong and who cannot decide for themselves if they want forgiveness or not is meaningless.

God is a just and merciful and loving God. He will not judge people for things they have no control over. For example, He will never judge me because I have green eyes. I did not choose to have green eyes and so even if green eyes are a sin, they are not my sin because I had no control over them. I know that is kind of a stupid example but yet it speaks to the point.

Look at this passage: (Romans 4:13-15 NIV) [13] It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. [14] For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, [15] because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression. Now I am about to do what we are always told not to do, I am going to take this passage out of it original context to make a point, but I think you will see what I am getting at. Paul is talking about law and faith, but he makes the statement that "where there is no law there is no transgression." Think about that. Is a child under the law if they are unable to understand the law? Even human courts do not hold someone accountable for the law if they can't understand it. If you are capable of understanding but ignorant that is not an excuse, but you must at least be capable of understanding. Would God judge differently? I don't think so, so if a person can't understand they would not be under the law and where there is no law there is no transgression.

That is as close to an explanation as I can get. I hope it helps. Even if a child were to be held accountable, since the baptism means nothing to them it would be of no help in the sight of God. The water is not magic, it is what it represents in the heart of the person being baptized and in the heart of a child it is nothing more then wet and cold. So I agree with you.

Ralph

Actually, now that I read it again, I think that it's a reply from an apologetics forum.
Interesting.

Your Brother
John

 

[Brother John]

Hmm where does the magic number 12 come from any one know?
Or if tat isn't the right age then what ever it is.

NO, there's nothing 'magical' about the age of 12 (actually, I've always heard eight), though in Judaism I believe that age 12 is when the boy becomes a man and celebrates with the Batmitzfa (SP?...help me here Mark)
That's more of a guidline I'd think, although there might be something written in the Talmud to be more specific.

Basic premise: We will only be held accountable for that which we can be responsible for.
Takes a certain level of maturity.
IF we haven't reached that level of maturity, regardless of the reason (mental retardation, youth...etc) we aren't yet subjected to the same judgement.
God is infinitely JUST, and thus...so will his judgement be JUST.

Your Brother
John

 

[Zepp]

NO, there's nothing 'magical' about the age of 12 (actually, I've always heard eight), though in Judaism I believe that age 12 is when the boy becomes a man and celebrates with the Batmitzfa (SP?...help me here Mark)

Today, it's usually the age of 13 at which a boy ceremonially becomes a Bar Mitzvah (Bat Mitzvah for girls). It's varied somewhat over time amongst Jews in different parts of the world. Technically, one can become a Bar or Bat Mitzvah at any age. I know some Jews who did it in their 20's, and some who did it in their 40's. (Sorry if you were expecting Mark to answer. )

 

[gmunoz]

Hmm where does the magic number 12 come from any one know?
Or if that isn't the right age then what ever it is.

From our ballpark, the number 12 is more the approximate age of when children start becoming aware and mentally able to comprehend what "being a sinner" means. It seems at about age 12 (could differ based on maturity) is when a child is able to understand that they need to be forgiven of sins. Not a magic number.

About sin for babies? Well, we understand through scripture sin is when person knows to do that which is right and doesn't do it - that is sin (James 4:17) Babies are obviously unable to be aware what is sin (they are innocent) thus, they cannot have committed sin. What we are born with in the fall of humanity in Genesis is the "nature" or natural tendency to commit sin. No one taught me what was sin - at a certain age I just started to do it. We dedicate or present babies to the Lord as Jesus himself was presented in the temple. When one reaches that age when they are able to understand the plan of redemption and that we need forgiveness of our sins, then one gets baptized in Jesus' Name.

 

[someguy]

Oh I was just wondering why it was a specific number. It was open to anyone.
Thanks.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Interesting. Because I do not believe that we inherit the original sin either, nor that man is born into sin. I know some Christians believe this, but I do not. Feisty?

I think the mindset of being born into sin is that noone has the ability to judge correctly the least sinfull behavior. The long and short of it is, you either go with the plan or go it on your own. The Plan represents everything a society values. It is your culture. Going it on your own is straying from the path, as it were. Being born into sin is an acceptance of humility. This stuff means a lot more when times are tough.
Sean

 

[heretic888]

"Sin" as used by the New Testament comes from a Greek word meaning "missing the mark". It was originally used in reference to archery.

The doctrine of "original sin" or the "sinful state" was a prevalent one in the Hellenistic world of the time. One sees it in Platonism, Orphism, Mithraism, and Zoroasterianism. There are also similar concepts in Buddhism with samsara, and Hinduism with maya.

In general, it is a concept alien to traditional Judaism. However, such concepts are found in the now-extinct Essenism and Pharisaism, and the still-practiced Kabbalah.

I posted a link to an interview with Ken Wilber some time back where he discusses the meaning of "sin" in regards to the perennial philosophy.

 

[Brother John]

Today, it's usually the age of 13 at which a boy ceremonially becomes a Bar Mitzvah (Bat Mitzvah for girls). It's varied somewhat over time amongst Jews in different parts of the world. Technically, one can become a Bar or Bat Mitzvah at any age. I know some Jews who did it in their 20's, and some who did it in their 40's. (Sorry if you were expecting Mark to answer. )

Thanks Zepp.
I didn't know you were Jewish, or at least really educated on all things Hebrew. Thanks for the info!

Also: a sideline I know, but ... what do the words Bat/Bar Mitvah translate as?? Just curious.
...Now that I think about it, doesn't the word "Bar" mean "son" in many instances? Like "BarJona" would be the 'son of Jona", or as Jesus was refered to as "Yeshuah Bar Yoseph" (Jesus, Son of Joseph)? So IF that is correct, then the word "Mitzvah" has left to be translated. Son of what?
Thanks

Your Brother
John

 

[Brother John]

"Sin" as used by the New Testament comes from a Greek word meaning "missing the mark". It was originally used in reference to archery.

The doctrine of "original sin" or the "sinful state" was a prevalent one in the Hellenistic world of the time. One sees it in Platonism, Orphism, Mithraism, and Zoroasterianism. There are also similar concepts in Buddhism with samsara, and Hinduism with maya.

In general, it is a concept alien to traditional Judaism. However, such concepts are found in the now-extinct Essenism and Pharisaism, and the still-practiced Kabbalah.

I posted a link to an interview with Ken Wilber some time back where he discusses the meaning of "sin" in regards to the perennial philosophy.

I didn't know that the Kabbalah has anything even similar to 'original sin' w/in it. I'm NOT saying you are wrong, but just wanting to know where you find this? Is it in the Zohar or some other well known work? I have several of them and am most familiar with the works of Aryeh Kaplan. OR...is this particularly from the works or followers of Abulafia? He's a little hard to follow, much more obscure.
sorry, I'm rambling...
thanks

Your Brother
John

 

[Mark Weiser]

Your correct John in reference to those words. Mitzvah is a Hebrew word that means commandment.

So Bar Mitzvah means "son of the commandment" this implies the willingness of a boy with proper education and training willingly crosses over into adulthood within the Jewish Community. He takes on a greater role and is held to a higher standard of living in the Community.

 

[Brother John]

Your correct John in reference to those words. Mitzvah is a Hebrew word that means commandment.

So Bar Mitzvah means "son of the commandment" this implies the willingness of a boy with proper education and training willingly crosses over into adulthood within the Jewish Community. He takes on a greater role and is held to a higher standard of living in the Community.

So it's a line of demarcation beyond which the boy is recognized as a man and is held accountable toward the law on his own accord? Before you were a son of your parents in the eyes of the law, now a son of the law it's self.

cool!
I believe that we need more 'rites of passage' in our society. They are important and strengthen the social ties and sense of responsibility and accountability.
It remends me of one of my favorite martial arts stories "Autumn lightening" by Dave Lowry. In it his sensei told him at a certain point:
"Now you are a Bugei (warrior)! MORE is expected of a Bugei!"

Your Brother
John

 

[heretic888]

Like "BarJona" would be the 'son of Jona", or as Jesus was refered to as "Yeshuah Bar Yoseph" (Jesus, Son of Joseph)?

Actually, "Jesus" (Iesous in the original Greek) does not have a direct Hebrew translation.

I didn't know that the Kabbalah has anything even similar to 'original sin' w/in it. I'm NOT saying you are wrong, but just wanting to know where you find this? Is it in the Zohar or some other well known work? I have several of them and am most familiar with the works of Aryeh Kaplan. OR...is this particularly from the works or followers of Abulafia? He's a little hard to follow, much more obscure.

It is not called "original sin" as such in Kabbalah, but that term isn't used in Platonism, Orphism, Buddhism, or Hinduism either --- yet, they all share similar concepts.

The idea akin to "original sin" in Kabbalah has to do with the Kabbalahistic view of cosmology. It is believed that Ein Sof created the universe by 'splitting' part of himself (so to speak) and that all created beings are 'fallen' seeds of light that seek to recommune with the One Being. There are similar ideas in Christian Gnosticism.

Sorry if the specifics are a little wacky. Its been awhile since I've read all this. :asian: