similarities Karate/Tae kwon Do

[Cirdan]

I'm more interested in discussion of entire karate ryu or ryu-ha that adopted TKD kicks. I just don't think that happened by and large. Karate systems have considerably different tactical goals than TKD systems to. It would make little sense for most of them to borrow things like ax kicks or jumping 360 kicks.

I am a bit curious to the origin of the axe kick. We do it at higher kyu levels at our traditional Wado dojo, certainly not the most practiced kick but is is in the actual curriculum (rather than an exercice meant to improve balance and flexibility). Sensei tells us there is a lot of stuff borrowed from other styles (Aikido, FMA, Tai Chi etc), but TKD is not one of these. I wouldn`t be suprised if there are other applications for the move besides the actual kick tho.

 

[puunui]

I've studied Okinawan Goju-ryu (Jundokan lineage) and Maysubayashi Shorin-ryu. Neither would be considered a long-range style as undoubtedly modern taekwondo would have to be. Thus no need or desire to practice the esoteric kicks from taekwondo.

A taekwondo (and hapkido) practitioner should train with the goal of kicking in any range and at any distance. If I stand nose to nose to you, I should be able to kick you in the head, body or leg.

Not to change the subject, but I have heard the idea that the kata Sanchin was actually based on wing chun's siu lim tao, including the dynamic tension aspects and some of the arm movements. Do you have any opinion or feeling about that?

 

[dancingalone]

Not to change the subject, but I have heard the idea that the kata Sanchin was actually based on wing chun's siu lim tao, including the dynamic tension aspects and some of the arm movements. Do you have any opinion or feeling about that?

In my opinion, I don't think so. It's possible that the Sil Lum Tao form and Sanchin kata evolved from a common ancestor form however.

The folk lore around wing chun says that it was developed by a Buddhist nun as a shortened yet effective course of her own martial arts, a crane fighting system .

With regard to Okinawan karate the link back to the gong fu from the Fukien province in China is well known. You can see Chinese versions of the uncorrupted(?) Samchien form found in Fukien White Crane as well as Ngo Cho Kun. They definitely share certain concepts with the Goju-ryu karate version, but it's clear (and documented) that Miyagi Sensei altered the Samchien his teacher taught him to be harder and more forceful. The Uechi-ryu karate version of Sanchin is softer and less altered in comparison; it certainly looks more like the Chinese versions of Samchien I've seen.

Not being a Wing Chun player, I can't speak authoritatively as to what Sil Lum Tao is supposed to teach. I believe I could play with the form and come up with Goju-based applications based on what I learned from Sanchin kata however, so maybe there is indeed some kinship there through the Crane gong fu connection.

 

[puunui]

They definitely share certain concepts with the Goju-ryu karate version, but it's clear (and documented) that Miyagi Sensei altered the Samchien his teacher taught him to be harder and more forceful.

Thanks for the answer. I studied Wing Chun (or more specifically Wing Chun Do) and so I wondered about that connection. One more question if I may. Miyagi Sensei died quite young, and I have heard some speculation that it was because of his forceful practice of Sanchin. Do you think there is any sort of danger in practicing Sanchin the way Miyagi Sensei practiced it? My intuition says probably not, but I am not a Goju Ryu practitioner.

 

[puunui]

I am a bit curious to the origin of the axe kick.

The Taekwondo ax kick was developed by GM Sang Chul LEE in the mid 1960's during competition. At 6'1" or so, GM Lee was taller than many of his opponents, and he used ax kick to completely dominate his smaller opponents. Back in those days, there were no weight divisions, so a six footer could end up fighting a five three competitor.

Hapkido also has an ax kick, which was developed by GM JI Han Jae in the 1950's, but it was used mainly as a finishing technique once you got your opponent bent over with hand technique. The Hapkido ax kick was used mainly to the back or back of the head of the opponent.

I believe the two ax kicks in the two different arts were developed independently of each other, but I can ask and find out.

 

[puunui]

I am an avid tennis player and I know what is played now is very different from what was played during the times of the Sun King, even if the name is the same. And taekkyon seems to have rather more rules/ritual dance components to it, making it considerably more complex to reinvent than dodgeball.

I play tennis as well, and the game has evolved over the last twenty or so years. I think equipment improvements have changed the singles game to a baseline rally situation. No more chip and charge like Pete Sampras used to do. Also, I don't know how much influence Taekwondo has had on modern Taekkyon, but there is a similarity from my uneducated eye between the two arts. I wouldn't be surprised if Taekkyon has borrowed some techniques or concepts from Taekwondo. But I think there are less rules in Taekkyon, I want to say that you can push the opponent down or kick his topknot, but that is about it. The ritual dance movements, called poombalki I believe, are used prior to the actual exchanges. I was speaking to GM Al Cole, who is the head of Taekkyon in the US and is the one who is sponsoring that Taekkyon seminar next year, and he said that Taekkyon is based on natural movements of mainly country people. I can't remember exactly, but I think he said that the poombalki motions were based on hiking up mountains. If you hike up, then that would be the natural motion of your hip. Also, the terminology is based on pidgin country Korean dialects, which are sometimes hard to understand.

Taekkyon in Korea is booming and I think there are 500,000 or more practitioners in Korea now. they say it is the second largest martial art in Korea now, larger than even Hapkido.

 

[bluewaveschool]

The ax kick as I learned it from my instructors was to target the back of the head once the opponent was bent over/down from another technique, a finishing movement. I learned that in TKD, not Hapkido.

 

[dancingalone]

Thanks for the answer. I studied Wing Chun (or more specifically Wing Chun Do) and so I wondered about that connection. One more question if I may. Miyagi Sensei died quite young, and I have heard some speculation that it was because of his forceful practice of Sanchin. Do you think there is any sort of danger in practicing Sanchin the way Miyagi Sensei practiced it? My intuition says probably not, but I am not a Goju Ryu practitioner.

Back in the eighties, someone ran an experiment to test this theory. They got a MD to hook a karate player up to an EKG machine as well as run other vital signs tests after he had performed Sanchin kata a number of times. The heart rate and blood pressure numbers were comparable to someone who had just engaged in some weight lifting training. So, the conclusions were that Sanchin was not necessary harmful in of itself, although certainly someone in poor physical shape might not be up to it.

Miyagi Sensei lived until he was 63 or 64. Not tremendously long-lived like some other Okinawans, but he had lived through the privations of WWII along with facing the grief from losing many members of his family along with his students (and senior student). He also reportedly was a smoker, so there may be other external factors that contributed to his 'early' death.

But I'll admit I don't perform Sanchin as violently hard as I used to when I was younger. I used to be able to make myself dizzy with the exertion and the forceful breath exhalation and my sensei would caution me on overdoing it. These days I prefer soft applications and movements in my karate, so I naturally also play Sanchin softer.

 

[puunui]

Back in the eighties, someone ran an experiment to test this theory. They got a MD to hook a karate player up to an EKG machine as well as run other vital signs tests after he had performed Sanchin kata a number of times. The heart rate and blood pressure numbers were comparable to someone who had just engaged in some weight lifting training. So, the conclusions were that Sanchin was not necessary harmful in of itself, although certainly someone in poor physical shape might not be up to it.

Thanks for the answer. I wondered about that for a long time, and I figured a Goju student would have heard the same thing and investigated it in depth.

Miyagi Sensei lived until he was 63 or 64. Not tremendously long-lived like some other Okinawans, but he had lived through the privations of WWII along with facing the grief from losing many members of his family along with his students (and senior student). He also reportedly was a smoker, so there may be other external factors that contributed to his 'early' death.

Here in Hawaii, there is a significant Okinawan population (one of my best and oldest friends is Okinawan, who I met in the first grade) and there is a tendency to live a very long life. I think part of it is the diet (there is a book out there called the Okinawan diet I believe) but I also think part of it is the gentle attitude of the culture and people.

But I'll admit I don't perform Sanchin as violently hard as I used to when I was younger. I used to be able to make myself dizzy with the exertion and the forceful breath exhalation and my sensei would caution me on overdoing it. These days I prefer soft applications and movements in my karate, so I naturally also play Sanchin softer.

When I was younger, I trained forms really hard, thinking that there were hidden secrets in them which needed to be mined like gold via hard, consistent practice. Then I hit a point where I felt like forms were meaningless, and stopped completely for about 10-15 years. Then about ten years ago, the Kukkiwon opened up its instructor course to non-koreans and so I trained really hard for two years getting ready for it. I was doing about 120-130 reps of forms per day six days a week plus the regular kick workout everyday. I wanted to go after one year but something came up and I had to wait until the next year to do it. By the time I got to the course, I trained two years and did about 50,000+ poomsae reps in that time.

Now my intensity and repetition level is much lower, and I find I do the poomsae mainly for health reasons more than anything else, to keep my joints lubricated and strong, and that sort of thing. So I'm like you in that sense.